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0:17
>> Hello! Thank you for joining for 2022 edition of Expo Chicago, international exposition of contemporary modern art. I'm Kate. Director of programming. It is my great pleasure to welcome you to dialogues. Present in partnership with the School of The Art Institute of Chicago. Dialogues offers panel discussions, conversations, and provocative artistic discourse with leading artists, curators and arts professionals on the current issues that engage them.
0:49
Our 2022 edition of the art critics forum will explore the role criticism can play with fostering an exclusive art world. Examine what forms of criticism can take today given the role by definition is to judge. Formed and moderated by Sarah Douglas, editor and chief in ARTnews. Discussion will be set against the ever expanding universe of socially paid sponsored and other media in which the critic is just a single voice and where
1:19
an Instagram post can make a greater impact than a review in a respected public causation. Special thank you to our partner ARTnews. Welcome Sarah who will introduce today's panelists. (Applause.) >> SARAH DOUGLAS: Come on the stage and I will sit way over here. Hello. I wanted to start by -- I feel like I don't really need to do a preamble because it was sort of just done for me. But I would have added to the Instagram post
1:50
thing, auction record because it seems like the market has become much more important in terms of an artist's process of endorsement than we do here. That's been an ongoing process for the past
2:04
several decades. In fact, I don't want to linger too much on how our criticism has been devalued because we all know it has been. Some of you may not know. I'll do a quick history. In 1950, 60s, this were people like Clement Greenberg, Harold Rosenberg, they made artists.
2:28
Over time and it kind of tracks with the birth and growth to maturity of the market for contemporary artists. So you can look back to things like when Jasper Johns, gallery sold a Jasper Johns for a million dollars and made a front page of the New York Times. Right now a million dollars is
2:53
whatever. Adjusted for inflation however much that would be. Johns is alive. That was very unusual. You had things like the skull sale where you had living artists coming up for sale. Gradually we're at the point now where I know of artists, I'm sure you do, too, who sort of play their own markets. Right? They bring their own work to auction. That creates visibility and a price record and as someone once Sid to me at a dinner of an artist who was at a mega gallery, which we could
3:27
spend a lot of time on mega gallery, we were at this dinner for the artist, the collector said,
3:37
oh, yeah, they are going to raise his prices X amount. I said, wow. Are people still going to buy it? He is like, more people are going to buy it now. Because they raised the price. Because people will see it as more valuable. That in fact is like the most important word
3:58
of the day when you talk about art criticism, and its condition is value. The market is one measure of value but an artwork's contribution to our understanding of things whether that's visual art, music, dance, poetry, that goes to the realm of criticism and it is up to critics to interpret and present that value. And shine a light on it. So I won't go on and on about this, but I do want to say one more thing which is that this art fair which is a place of commerce and which
4:39
is obviously the market is implicated in that. People are selling art here. However, Tony Karman runs this fair has made a point of always having a panel about art criticism. Because I think he's one of those people who understand that art writing and criticism is important to the art ecosystem, both in a local accepts, and we have a Chicago writer here, and in the wider sort of the global art market, whatever you would call it. The movable feast that is the art world.
5:15
So with that, I want to turn to our speakers. And I actually am not going to take a whole lot of time introducing them because I hate long introductions.
5:26
I will actually leave it to them when I turn to them with the first question to tell you a little bit about themselves and who they write for and their evolution as a writer and critic.
5:37
Beginning to my immediate left, Britt Juious who writes I think primarily about music, but also has written about visual art and other art forms. She is here in Chicago and we talked about the -- how in fact during the pandemic your writing became more anchored in the local culture here. Jillian Steinhauer who I have known for years because we once worked at the same crazy company.
6:08
And she has written for a wide variety of publication. She writes -- you may see her byline frequently in the New York Times where she's a regular art critic, reviewer, but she writes for other places like the nation and many other venues. Was at hyperallergic for a time. And Max Lakin who is a great critic, is a freelancer. I think your web page is very funny. Is in New York and lives there still. I suggest you check out all these folks' web presences.
6:48
He has written for vanity fair, a lot for art forum, and other publications.
6:54
So I am going to -- in our kind of prediscussion for this panel, I said what I really like to hear from these folks is really focused on the past couple years, right? If you think back, this art fair hasn't taken place since I think September 2019. That was the last Expo Chicago.
7:15
And we all know what happened between then and now. Whether it is the pandemic, or various social justice issues that have come up.
7:27
What I would like to know from these writers is, first of all, going into that time and still now,
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what is your approach to criticism? What is your -- how would you characterize your perspective? What is it you are trying to do with your writing? Then how has this period affected that? How has it changed your priorities in what you are writing about? How has it changed where you are writing. How has it changed -- one thing I find fascinating is here we are talking about people who write about whether it is a performance or an art exhibition who were sort of starved of material
8:14
for two years unless they were looking online and that's not an experience of art. Unless it is a digital artwork and NFT. Whatever that S. I will turn first to you, Britt, and if you could start by talking about your experience as a critic, and then we'll move on to the next question. >> BRITT JUIOUS: My name is Britt Juious. Based here in Chicago. I have primarily been a freelance journalist for more than 10 years or so. I have
8:44
written for a number of national, international publications, everything like the New York Times, esquire, ELL. Et cetera. I primarily write for the Chicago Tribune. I am the tribune's music critic and night life critic and I have been doing that for almost 8 years now. For me with the pandemic how it changed the scope of the work that I do is prior to the pandemic I had just received
9:12
a promotion at the tribune where I had been the junior music critic and I was essentially going to be the senior music critic because the tribune's long time critic Greg Cott had stepped down. His role really involved criticism that wasn't just local, it was national, international. It was criticism in relation to concerts, large music events, just sort of the state of music in general so that was going to be the scope of what I would be doing for the tribune. Which is work
9:42
that I had been doing on a freelance capacity for a number of different places for years. However, literally I think I got that kind of promotion it was official right in the beginning of March. And two weeks later my editor was like, actually, no. The reason why he had Sid that was because there was no more going out. There were no more concerts. Right? No more tours that were happening. Albums were being put on hold and we didn't really know
10:09
when they would actually come out. That very much changed the scope of what I would be doing. And I had to essentially go from being more of a critic to being sort of a critic and a reporter. So I was really focused on what is actually happening here in Chicago as it relates to music. I really expanded the scope of what I was doing, but I also felt that it was very much in line with some of the kind of morals and ethics of my own writing practice which is always to highlight
10:48
the marginalized, disenfranchised, and people from population that is are typically ignored, especially the Black and Brown communities in Chicago.
11:00
It really expanded the at of work I did and how I looked at things. So it wasn't just reviewing an album, reviewing an EP, talking about a concert or a trend that was happening in music. It was looking at unions that were forming that were related to the music industry. It was examining how different venues and different performers and collectives were responding to the racial uprisings that were happening in the summer of 2020, or ongoing discussions that
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had been happening regarding sexual assault and violence as it related to the music community. It really turned me from just being a traditional music critic to being a music, cultural reporter. I think that very much then began to inform the type of criticism that I started to do again.
11:51
As things began to open up in the pandemic and music was being released again and concerts were happening again and things like that. The other thing that really happened for me as well is as a junior critic I was tasked with being a local reporter. I was writing about those scenes in general. I had been very much -- not embedded in them but I knew what was going on in them. And my responsibility to know everything from experimental jazz communities to
12:21
up and coming technosubcultures, to genre blending, R &B reporters. I was familiar with all these different people from all different walks of life who were performing and creating in their own
12:36
communities and microcosms around the city. My editor at the time he had asked me to lean in even more into doing that kind of local reporting because they had sort of realized at the paper that the world itself was scary and terrifying and people were finding comfort in learning more about the city itself. And the people itself in the city. Right? They are like, our local stories are doing real great. You know? They are like people aren't coming to us to see
13:11
what's the latest on COVID. Because they know what the latest is on COVID. Everyone is freaked out and everyone is doom scrolling. But they want to hear about a street performer and how he is pivoting his work from being on the street and there is no one there, how do you make money? What do you do for that? They want to know about what are the new and inventive ways that musicians are
13:35
getting their music out there to people online and what does that say about the relationship between the performer and the audience and things like that. It was really successful. I was certain I was like they are going to get rid of me. There is no music. Right? (laughing) I had to be really inventive and say,
13:54
what does this say about music. What does it say about the culture. What does it say about resiliency in the city and how people are going to continue to create even if they know there is no audience that's out there. And isn't that the heart of what music should be anyway? I. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: I want to before we move ton Jillian ask you a couple questions. First of all, it is interesting to hear what you are talking about, in part because a talk
14:15
here yesterday between Melanie Gerlis who writes about the art market and Tony Karman, I think Melanie alluded to the idea of hyper localization or deglobalization that's floating around right now. It seems like what you are saying really speaks to that. But I also wanted to ask,
14:37
so I haven't been to Chicago since September 2019. I feel like coming back now and I feel like I saw this at the opening of this exhibition skin in the game. There seems to be more crossover between -- like someone said to me. Chicago is a music town and a food town. An art town? Yeah, a little bit. But I see more mixing of people in those worlds. At least I did at that opening. I wonder if you can comment on that? >> BRITT JUIOUS: I would say yes, that's very
15:08
tied with each other. What I found personally, especially within the last couple years or so,
15:16
I guess maybe even 2020 but before that as well, artists from different genres were not afraid to interact with each other. It is not every genre in Chicago for sure, but there is definitely a strong connection between visual art and music in Chicago and it continues to get -- continues to grow more and more. I noticed it especially in the summer of 2020 with the racial uprisings that were happening
15:42
in particular. A lot of musicians when I would interview them, my editor at the time he asked, who is creating the protest songs in Chicago? I was like okay. Which I think -- when we think of protest movements we think there has got to be a song that kind of unites everyone together.
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People had released some songs but so many of the artists I talked to, they were like, I'm not even thinking about that. They are like I am working with all these other people who are also creatives, but they are like that's not our concern. Our concern is to build and create this better world and to be on the street and come together and create events and, yeah, although there are artistic practices come together where someone might sing, someone might
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dance, someone might create a mural or some other sort of piece all at the same event together. But they weren't concerned about creating the next protest song to move people. I thought that was a really great representation of how these different communities were coming together. And from my experience they are still together. That really sort of motivated them to realize, oh, we have the same goals and unfortunately in a city like Chicago that is so hypersegregated,
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both racially but across class and sexuality and all these other areas,
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they were breaking those barriers, and we are do so much more and be so much more powerful with our goals an ideas when you are together. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: I will move on to Jillian. Tell us about where you are coming from as a critic. And
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how the past two years have changed that. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: Both questions at once. Okay, great. (Laughter.) >> SARAH DOUGLAS: It is better that way then. I want to open up the discussion and ask you guys about a lot of things. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: I think of criticism, I approach criticism as basically a way to think about the world. For me anything that exists out in the world also exists in art. I am often asking social or political or philosophical
17:42
or formal questions, and criticism is my way of just thinking through what it means to live in the world. I find that artists are asking those questions and I'm really drawn to artists who are answering these questions an asking them in really interesting ways. I think for me, yeah, it is just kind of -- it is a way to live, honestly. A way to think through the problems of life and the world. It sounds kind of cheesy, but that is how I approach it.
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I have been coming at it that way a long time. I used to be a editor at hyperallergic, if you know them you know they focus on political issues. Have I been a freelancer for four and a half years.
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I have carried that over but shifted my approach, slowed down, and writing for a general interest publications now so it is a very different audience than when I wrote for hyperallergic.
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And the pandemic? For me if we're being real, it has been a trip, it has been a weird two years for me in my head. You know, in the beginning everything shut down so I'm in New York and it was scary. And intense. There were sirens all the time. And everything closed. I'm being totally honest, in the beginning it was nice for a while because -- so being a freelancer is really complicated and hard. I'll send days seeing shows. I don't get paid for those
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days of work. I get underpaid for everything I do basically. So when everything shut down I had this moment of, well, I can't go see anything. I guess I will sleep for a minute. I was super worried about income but I was also, wow, I don't have to go see galleries for three days in a row.
19:28
So at first it was kind of nice. I also did a similar thing. I have always been a critic and a reporter but I also found myself doing more reporting in the beginning. Reporting on grants fort artists. Reporting on museum layoffs and things like that. Basically how artist were coping because it felt very related to how freelance writers were coping as well.
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Then things reopened or gradually reopened and that has been nice. I have finally got to a point where God I'm sick of looking at many web page that is people call viewing rooms and I would love to see flesh and art and it was nice to go back to museums and galleries. In some ways I feel like I reconnected loving going to see shows again.
20:13
I will say the hardest thing for me in the last two years is like,
20:18
I have always struggled in my writing with what I think of as a micro versus macro problem. Where
20:25
art itself, like the work that artists are making I find incredibly moving, incredibly thought provoking. It does so much for me. The systems of the art world I have a lot of issues with, and I have struggled to find ways to cover them. When the George Floyd uprising happened, when the protests were happening, when the pandemic first happened and museums were laying off staff and cutting people and people were losing their jobs left and right, while there were millionaires
20:54
on the board of the same institutions, I felt this pull even more where I was like, how do I write honestly about this work that I really care about while also recognizing that it exists within these systems that I find extremely problematic, and even more so now.
21:12
Like I said, that's always been something I have been struggled to confirm, and the last few years has been even harder to wrap my head around how to do that because the contrast feels very extreme. Especially in the beginning when hundreds of people were losing their jobs.
21:31
So, yeah, I don't know that I have a great answer to the question. I have continued to write criticism. I have done some reporting, less so in the last year or so. I am still kind of figuring out how to approach things. I also -- there are definitely moments where
21:49
there is a lot going on. There is the pandemic. A war. Climate change. I definitely get overwhelmed and I have moments where I'm like, does anyone care if I write this review? I hope someone cares and I hope someone wants to read it. But you know those little minicrises, that's do happen. I was talking the other night to an amazing art critic here in Chicago Lori Wexman, and she said something that was very wise. When I'm in front of the art I'm a believer. When I'm
22:19
not directly in front of it, it can feel a little bit harder to stay a believer. That's where I would say the place I've been at recently of just wondering what I'm really doing sometimes. But knowing I want to do it nonetheless. The artists are still making work and I want to show up for them because I do believe in the work. I don't know, just kind of work it all. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: It is interesting when you say that because the online viewing rooms it really
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is such an abstraction. You are not looking at the art -- you are looking at something else. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: One thing I really haven't thought about when I was looking at a million online viewing rooms and reviewing them which -- >> SARAH DOUGLAS: Which started happening -- >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER:, I had to do it. Because I write gallery picks for the times. We were like I guess I review online reviews. What I didn't realize until I went to gallery,
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oh, scale. Not just presence but scale. How big is this painting? I have no idea. I can read the dimensions but I am not going to take a tape measure -- when you standing in front of the work you have such a different relationship to it. The materiality. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: That's to true, Jillian. When I was in college in the 90s I worked for Jack Shaneman. Someone came in and said we have to photograph this Konopka
23:39
for this highly theoretical book for Mika Ball. The photographer comes in and they are like,
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we need something for scale. And they were like, oh, how about you? Random gallery worker. I still have that book -- I got the book because it is so funny. There is a post it note I showed my 7 year old daughter. I'm famous. I'm in this obscure theoretical art history.
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Let me ask you one follow-up question which is, -- maybe this is hard to answer, do you feel more comfortable writing in a place like the nation where assumed audience has a particular politics to you? Or do you appreciate the challenge for writing for the times and we can go on and on and on about the problems and actually really interesting issues with the times and how they approach things. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: I don't think about
24:36
it in terms of politics. I think about it in terms of how much knowledge my audience has about art. It was a big transition to move from hyperallergic where they had a assumed knowledge, baseline of knowledge, for writing for the times or the nations.
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The times covers art a lot. You can't assume -- I have some cousins who subscribe to the times. One will leave -- he left me a voice mail once early on. I don't understand what feminist art is but I really like seeing your name in the paper. (Laughter.) I was like, I am writing for this cousin. You know? So I actually -- it is been a really interesting shift. And there are moments where I get kind of frustrated. Man, I spent half my
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space explaining. There is a lot more explaining you have to do when you have a general audience.
25:25
I actually love it because I feel a lot more like kind of a translator in a way or almost like a bridge. Almost an Evangelist. I think contemporary art is so fascinating. There are so many fascinating questions and conversations happening. And the vast majority of people now outside the art world are not engaged with this stuff. I like the challenge of having to explain to someone why that might matter or why they might want to think about that. It is hard and
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I have moments am I doing any really criticism. By the time I explained I'm done. I'm out of space. But it is fun. It is like a nice challenge. How do I explain in a new way to get people to care. Maybe they read the first paragraph and they don't read about art but they are hooked and they want to keep reading. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: We could go on and on about the problem of limited real estate because I'm now additionally
26:23
responsible for art in America magazine where I top edit reviews. And I'm kind of like,
26:29
all we did was describe. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: Yes. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: And can we make the description work a little harder to Crete. But you are also reminding me of a talk Roberta Smith gave ones. I'll never forget this. Someone said, do you feel you need to explain who an artist is? She said -- I think she used Morris Louis as the example for some reason. She is like, you know what? No.
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It is incumbent for you to look up who Morris Louis is. If you are reading me I will assume you know who Morris Louis is. That's interesting. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: That is interesting. At a writer at the sometimes not us get treated by Roberta Smith and we get told we have to explain.
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I used to write my reviews and not add explanation, I only get 250 words and I get edit whose is this person. So I have to explain. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: The next time you go to an exhibition, see if you can even describe it in less than 250 words. It is a real challenge. Moving on to max. I would love to hear your perspective of criticism and what the past two years have been like. >> MAX LAKIN: I'm totally freelance. I have
27:44
always been freelance much never had a staff job. Past two years have been much like the past five years before that. That's have kind of the extreme luxury to pick
27:59
and choose what I write about based on if it interests me. I don't mean if it is my taste. If I feel like it provokes me enough to write about it or it pisses me off enough to write about it.
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I grew up in New York I had a soft spot about art, for the city, and also as a freelancer.
28:25
I can safely assume the big museum exhibitions and the blue chip galleries is going to a staff critic which frees up the smaller and weirder stuff which is often more interesting anyway.
28:41
I'm drawn to New York art, graffiti writers in the 80s and what the artist (unclear) calls the subway school. If you have been paying attention in the last two years, it has gotten a lot of attention now. Presentation for artists like Futura and RaMel Z and in on security in queens for 30 years and now have massive shows. So that kind of thing. The pandemic I think for me didn't change my
29:12
approach so much as it put into kind of higher leaf what a lot of people suspected, is there is a lot of inequality in the art world and a lot of bullshit. I'm thinking of NFTs which are -- (Laughter.) -- a para -- scheme if you didn't know that.
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To be honest I was wrong. I thought that would go bust really quickly. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: So did I. >> MAX LAKIN: And it is still here!
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I think it is also useful to look at something like that as kind of a wealth extraction, and a wealth -- it is like who is involved in that. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: So Jeff Koons. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: Wasn't in a yesterday? >> SARAH DOUGLAS: Oh my God. Wasn't that human condition and enlightenment of human -- >> MAX LAKIN: It is really bleak. It is really bleak. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: If you didn't get that. Jeff Koons has created NFT and he is sending something of some form to the moon.
30:18
Is it staying on the moon? >> MAX LAKIN: I don't know. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: Anyhow. (Laughter.) >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: Follow-up story. >> MAX LAKIN: But I think besides that we saw kind of the ways that art can be used not -- I think artists have kind of this amazing ability to
30:42
not so much tell people but show people how to feel
30:46
about something. I approach criticism and I also write features and profiles and reporting also. I approach it as a service, kind of as Jillian said, this kind of translator or intermediary,
31:01
because unless you are able to see a gallery show or whatever, and online viewing rooms don't count. I will say as an aside the way online viewing rooms are reinvented capital OVR. Art Basel over,
31:15
screaming this thing. Which is a nice idea. Anyway.
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I think it is -- >> SARAH DOUGLAS: I never thought that. Put that E? >> MAX LAKIN: Yeah, that
31:25
kind of over. That kind of thing. Kind of the ways that art can
31:31
do that but also the way art can be manipulated which is something I saw during the protests when you had luxury stores like Louis Vuitton and Cartier board up their cases and put graffiti like
31:50
love and peace and understanding, and also we're worried that you are going to steal
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the goods inside. That is kind of the manipulation of art and that really -- >> SARAH DOUGLAS: Right, at the same time those boards themselves got turned into art works by the people basically. >> MAX LAKIN: Right. There were two strands of that in Soho. There was this kind of plain air gallery. Toes are real artist whose are really responding earnestly and genuinely what was going on. And then the uptown stuff it was
32:24
artist Shantel Martin who leaked her e-mail from Microsoft about how they wanted her to make this feel good mural for their store. And she was like, rightly, recognize it for what it was which was heinous and that kind of thing. I felt that was a good example of a similar idea.
32:44
Kind of two versions of how art can function. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: Yeah, not to go off on a tangent about that. But those plywood boards that got turned into defacto art works, were then collected by an organization, and I can't remember the name. But then they turned out to be two factions within the organization. There were two people -- >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: It is the George Floyd thing. They collected the murals from downtown and some of them got brought to the Hamptons.
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>> SARAH DOUGLAS: Exactly. Then there was a split between the two of them. Because they were up during a gala -- >> MAX LAKIN: Total -- >> SARAH DOUGLAS: It was a total perversion -- >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: One group was like we didn't even know they were taking them. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: Yes, exactly. It turned out to be a tempest in the tea pot, but I regret that we didn't to more coverage of that because
33:33
it really captured something. I think that gets to what I think of like the wider context of our criticism is there is the sort of narrow context of your you are reviewing a show, and in a way that's a recommendation for someone to go see it because you only have 250 words. But in the wider context of our criticism shouldn't we be criticizing or noticing the way art is used? The way it is deployed? The way -- and in that sense the market
34:01
comes into it. It is a holistic thing. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: I don't know if max is done. I don't want to cut in. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: I think we can
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open it up. We have limited time. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: One example -- this is sort of what I was sort of trying to get watt this micro, macro thing. I often struggle with knowing with how to be fair to the artist and also include that critique. I wrote about -- I profiled Pindel when she had a show at the Shedd. The show was so long overdue. Her recognition, her success are so long overdue. She is an incredible person. Her work is incredible.
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But I really struggled when I was writing that, like the Shedd, I have so many issues with the Shedd. The way money was raised for the Shedd. What the Shedd stands for. All of these things. And I was like, it is not the artist's fault that the Shedd gave her the show that meant Whitney should have given it to her but didn't. How could I be true to her and the work while also thinking about this would real critique of the space in which the work is being shown.
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I don't have a good answer. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: I want to ask a sort of
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difficult question and I'm sorry for putting you guys on the spot. If you don't want to answer it, that's okay. Britt, something you said really reminded me of this ongoing couldn't verse -- controversy about if an artist, a creator of any kinds is called out for poor behavior,
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how do we treat the work? One can't say a few words about that, but I wondered if that's something you've had to think about. >> BRITT JUIOUS: Yeah, for sure.
35:43
It happens a lot in the music industry in terms of the coverage that I do. A lot, a lot. And I think people have become a lot more open and vocal about expressing that.
35:56
Me personally I have a reputation for being very open and wanting to discuss these sort of things. I have been on panels that focus on things like sexual violence in the music community or racism in the music community. I have people who will reach out to me and be like, this guy is a rapist. I'm like, oh fuck. I just wrote about him. Right? What do we do there?
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I have been having this discussion with my editors, how do we approach this.
36:33
It is a two part -- actually a multipart thing where I will speak to whoever is coming to me to hear their story. Oftentimes we -- if something has been published in a paper we can't put it back -- pull it back. It is already there. If it is online, tribune policy is not necessarily to remove a story because it was -- >> SARAH DOUGLAS: Never remove a story. >> BRITT JUIOUS: Right. It was a form of criticism that didn't have anything to do with the person's
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actions and problems and things like that. Sometimes we'll update a story so we'll do a couple follow-up stories in relation to that specific person. That's kind of when the reporter side of me turns on. We turn it into a different angle in that sense. Sometimes we'll just -- if it was a review, we might go back and add a couple of paragraphs of context and link out. I would say it really varies from person to person. More often than not, I usually hear
37:36
about things before I even decide to write about a person or a musician. So for me personally,
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I have no problem just sort of being like, I'm not going to write about that person. I just don't -- >> SARAH DOUGLAS: It becomes a kind of due diligence now. Right? >> BRITT JUIOUS: Right. They don't deserve the exposure in my mind they don't deserve the exposure and there are so many other artists and releases and concerts and events and projects, and so and so that needs to be written about,
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in my mind I don't feel some kind of way about just being like, well I'm just not going to cover that person. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: Yeah. Just for a second if I can turn to you, Jillian, and put you on the spot, I was -- it got into this discussion with my husband the other day and I was saying shall wouldn't it be fascinating to do a podcast about the whole Carl Andre and Amendta episode. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: That would be
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fascinating. I would listen. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: And talk about not just -- the artist coAndre as many of you know was accused of pushing his wife, the artist out a window in the 70s or 80s and he was acquitted. Not found guilty and we always need to say that. But there is a faction of the art world, many of them feminists, who continue to believe that he did it and what's interesting is it is almost a mark of your identity to believe
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that he did it. There are artists will say this. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: Oh, yeah. I hyperallergic I covered -- when I was there there was Carl Andre show at Dia, a big Carl Andre show. There was a protest I covered. Then there was another protest -- one was in the city and one was
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upstate. I remember when I covered the protest in the city, that was sort of my first exposure to it firsthand where the people there were like, -- all the protesters were like straight up if you interviewed people, they would be like, no, no, he killed her. People really, really believe it.
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Yeah. I don't know -- I kind of do what Britt does where I don't cover people if I think that they are abusers or -- I try to just kind of choose -- I think the choice is not covering in a lot of ways. But the Carl Andre thing is really tricky because
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when -- so there were some feminist whose staged a protest at Dia Bekin at the show. At the show they staged a cry-in. They sat down and started crying around the work.
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What they were sort of objecting to was the way that she was erased from his life. She was not mentioned. There is no mention of the fact that he was tried and acquitted. Nothing. Whereas often in the reverse, when you are talking about Anamon Dia -- he's always mentioned because that's how she died. It is like this way of who gets to -- who gets biographyized and who doesn't.
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Who gets to have the presumption of neutrality. You don't need to know about the life story or shady things they did or maybe they don't have to talk about it because the work speaks for itself. Right? Versus often -- second wave feminist artists made a lot of work that was personal. Personal is political. Of course their life story comes into it so they don't get that benefit of the doubt of the work speaks for itself. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: I just thought about
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something. You know how they should express their anger by Carl Andres just working on their work. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: Totally. >> SARAH DOUGLAS: Max, I will put you on the spot because you mentioned the idea of certain kinds of writing coming out of anger or disappointment whether it is with the system or -- so I wanted to ask you about the negative review.
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And that goes to the question of limited real estate. When is it worth it to run a negative review? I'll just tell you one of my favorite -- probably everyone's favorite negative review was Roberta Smith on David Swarmer and absolute just destruction. Just tore it. Just ripped it to shreds. We talked about that where I was at the Observator at the time. We talked about that
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was it worth it to do that. You could have instead given that real estate to a good artist and brought some attention to them. I just wondered what is your feeling on when is it worth it to write a negative review? >> MAX LAKIN: I think it is almost always worth it. (Laughter.) It is not worth it -- I won't write something negative about somebody's first show. Right? A young artist -- it is not worth it. There is no real power structure being abused.
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If it is a show with (unclear) and somebody stands to make millions and millions of dollars and the work is very bad or vacant or -- right? Yeah. It is not only worth it but I think it is incumbent upon the critic to say so. Because of the kind of dual layer. There is the work and then there is what's at stake which is money and power. The same way that your column could go to more deserving artist. That show could go to -- >> SARAH DOUGLAS: That's right. If you
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think about the square footage. Right? If I can have a couple minutes, I just want to show all of you, I figure I would save it to the end to give you something to think about. We wanted to have Mary Louis Schumacher here. She wasn't able to make it. She got COVID unfortunately. But she was a critic, she was the art critic at the Milwaukee journal sentinel for many years. She was laid off a few years ago. The laying off of art critics is something that has
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happened -- has been happening around the country. She decided she would make a film about a particular art critic who lost her job in Seattle, and in the process of doing that,
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talk to many, many art critics about what art criticism's value is. And I think use this film to try to remind people of that. So I don't know who has the clicker, you guys -- are you able to play it? >> Yes. >> JILLIAN STEINHAUER: I feel like I should say the film is coming out later this year? >> SARAH DOUGLAS: Yes. I am going to play you the trailer. Hopefully we can make that happen. (video playing) >> I don't know what this is. >> I think I might like it.
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(Laughter.) >> I don't have any explanation why. Because it might be really bad. I can't tell. >> Everyone I talk to on a one-on-one basis is usually very interested in art. They feel alienated from contemporary art like somehow there is a secret they are not getting yet. >> The art world is definitely bullshit. >> I don't want to imply that all artists are bullshit but it is a lot of bullshit. >> With the power vested in me I am currently employed as a chronic Houston art critic.
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I declare that fucking piece sucks. >> (unclear) textbooks will reproduce it. >> I don't think I can point to any popular culture depiction of art critics where they aren't a stand-in for kind of savvy elitism or out of touch weirdos. >> Critique is so limiting and emotionally training. >> They basically hate us. >> I mean I'm always surprised when I find out anyone has read anything that I have written. >> I love experiencing physical objects. I don't
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necessarily like reading about inanimate objects. >> I don't think most people understand criticism. Period. >> Criticism means nothing to the average person on the street. And art works can could, should, would, there is so much that you can get from a real incredible artwork that utterly shifts your experience in the world. >> The (unclear) is some of the most beautiful. But you also get not settle and fireworks.
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You sort of have it all in here. >> When I came here 11 years ago there were 4 full time critics just in Seattle. And there was one of the Ragonian. I believe there is now just me and that means there is now zero. >> Small and medium size newspapers are looking at the possibility of extinction. >> Down side of midsize and small American cities not having arts reported is there are going to be more marginalized conversation.
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>> If the whole American discourse about the arts is controlled by 6 people in New York City, that's a limited perspective. >> If they are the only ones with the power to define something, you are taking away power from other people. >> I sometimes have these moments where I am like, am I taking crazy feminist pills? I don't understand what you are seeing in this thing! >> As much as we like to moan and grown about
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the death of art criticism is maybe a reason to be excited about new voices coming in about these new ways of presenting it. >> We're at the cusp of a particular moment where there is this rise of force like hyperallergic. >> The role of the critic has changed. A lot of this technology is so new, it is like still the chaos of the wave crashing. We haven't quite figured it out yet. >> Art and popular culture merged together in a
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completely different way in the last decade. >> The tools typically associated with art production are everywhere. >> I think that there is a Facebookification, a Twitterification of art, something that spreads really virally through the Internet is seldom something that really makes you think. >>
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People like to think of art as purely being about good and somehow neutral. But art is never neutral. >> Our idea of art and what art should be has changed. >>
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My beat is value. Deep discussion. And dialogue. And conflict about what we value. >> This work is for the people. And if it is not for the people, what are we doing? (end of film) >> SARAH DOUGLAS: So I encourage you to see this film when it comes out. And also to read of course the writing of all our great speakers here. So thank you for coming. And sorry I was late. (Laughter.) (Applause.)
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