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14:11
>> Steve: WE LIVE IN UNSETTLED TIMES. MORE AND MORE KNOWLEDGE IS AVAILABLE TO US. BUT THE AMOUNT OF TIME FOR US TO GIVE ATTENTION TO IT REMAINS THE SAME. WHAT KIND OF KNOWLEDGE IS NEEDED AND IN WHAT WAYS WILL WE BE ACQUIRING IT? THOSE ARE A COUPLE OF THE BIG QUESTION THAT IS ALL EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTES ARE CONTENDING WITH. LETS GET INTO THIS. HERE'S GEORGE SIEMENS PROFESSOR AT THE CENTRE FOR RESEARCH EXCELLENCE AND PROFESSOR WITH
14:40
THE TECHNOLOGY ADVANCED INSTITUTE AT ATHABASKA INSTITUTE IN ALBERTA. IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE AGAIN, GEORGE. >> George: A PLEASURE TO BE HERE, STEVE. >> Steve: LETS TALK ABOUT THIS. THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IS IN THE MIDST OF HISTORIC REVOLUTIONARY CHANGES. DO YOU OR ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS KNOW WHERE THIS REVOLUTION IS TAKING US? >> George: I THINK NO ONE REALLY DOES. THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE DESIRES AND GOALS FOR WHAT THE SYSTEM SHOULD LOOK LIKE.
15:02
BUT THE AMOUNT OF COMPONENTS IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM THAT ARE UP IN THE AIR RIGHT NOW MAKES IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO PREDICT. EVERYTHING FROM POLICY ISSUES ON THE GOVERNMENT END OF THE IT'S THE GROWTH OF COMMERCIAL ACTIVITY IN THE EDUCATION SPACE TO JUST ECONOMIC PRESSURES AND USERS, THE STUDENTS OF THE SYSTEM SO IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO PREDICT WHERE WE'RE GOING AS A SYSTEM. >> Steve: WHEREVER WE ARE GOING I HAVE HEARD YOU SAY THAT WE HAVE TO PUT THE STUDENT AS A
15:28
INDIVIDUAL AT THE CENTRE OF EVERYTHING BECAUSE THAT'S THE HOLY GRAIL. WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT? >> George: WHEN YOU CONSIDER WHAT WE DO IN EDUCATION, MOST OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IS TO IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF SOCIETY THROUGH IMPROVING THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS OF SOCIETY. SO HIGHER QUALITY OF EDUCATION. A BETTER ABILITY TO GAIN EMPLOYMENT THAT THEY ARE INTERESTED IN. AND JUST THE ABILITY TO HAVE MORE CRITICAL, THOUGHTFUL VIEWS OF THE WORLD AROUND THEM.
15:53
THERE ARE RESEARCH COMPONENTS TO THE EDUCATION SYSTEM AS WELL THAT ARE QUITE SIGNIFICANT. BUT FOR THE TEACHING AND LEARNING EXPERIENCE. FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY PAYING TUITION DOLLARS THEY HAVE TO BE AT THE CENTRE OF THE EXPERIENCE. IN THE PAST WE NEEDED THE UNIVERSITY TO DO A LOT OF THE KNOWLEDGE MEDIATING FOR US. THEN THE WEB COMES ALONG AND WE HAVE WEB 2.0 THEN SOCIAL MEDIA, THEN MASSIVE OPEN ONLINE COURSES THEN THE NEXT THING YOU KNOW STUDENTS CAN ORGANIZE WITHOUT AN ORGANIZATION.
16:19
THEY CAN IN A JOURNALIST SENSE GO DIRECT TO SOURCE THEY DON'T NEED A UNIVERSITY TO PLAY THE MEDIATING ROLE. THE UNIVERSITY WANTS TO STAY RELEVANT IN THE LIVES OF STUDENTS. THEY HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT STUDENTS WANT AND NEED. WHAT KIND OF TOOLS AND TECHNOLOGIES DO THEY WANT? HOW ARE THEY INTERACTING OUTSIDE OF THE CLASS SETTING AND THAT WHOLE RANGE OF FACTORS THAT COMES WITH STUDENTS INNERS IT OF EXPECTATIONS AND NEEDS. >> Steve: ONCE UPON A TIME IT WAS A FACTORY SETTING.
16:47
WE ARE NOW INTO A MUCH MORE PERSONALIZED SENSE OF HOW TO LEARN. HOW'S THAT GOING? >> George: IT DEPENDS WHO YOU TALK TO. FOR ONE EXAMPLE THERE IS A COMPANY CALLED NEWTON. AND THEY, IN AN AFTERNOON OF WORKING WITH THEIR SYSTEM THEY SAY THEY COLLECT IN EXCESS OF 150,000 DATA POINTS ON YOU. THEY LITERALLY KNOW WHEN YOU LOG IN THE NEXT DAY AT 8:17 IN THE MORNING THEY KNOW THAT YOU ARE VERY BAD AT THIS KIND OF MATH FIRST THING IN THE MORNING UNTIL YOU'VE HAD A CUP OF COFFEE.
17:15
BUT THEY ALSO KNOW AFTER YOU'VE BEEN WITH THEIR SYSTEM FOR 30 MINUTES THERE IS AN INCREASE IN PRODUCTIVITY. THEY SPEED UP THE RATE AT WHICH YOU GET CONTENT. IT'S VERY INTERESTING BECAUSE IT TAKES INTO ACCOUNT WHO ARE YOU AS A LEARNER. RIGHT? WHAT KINDS OF SKILLS AND KNOWLEDGE DO YOU HAVE THAT YOU HAVE DEVELOPED VERSUS SOMEBODY ELSE IN THE CLASS THAT ISN'T GETTING THE SAME KIND OF FEEDBACK? THE DIFFICULTY, THOUGH, IS THAT ONLY WORKS IF THERE IS A RIGHT ANSWER.
17:38
SO CERTAIN AREAS LIKE MATH, PHYSICS OR CHEMISTRY, THAT KIND OF PERSONALIZATION WORKS WELL. BUT IF YOU WANT SOMEONE TO THINK CRITICALLY ABOUT PHILOSOPHY OR EVEN CREATIVELY ABOUT CHALLENGES THAT NEED TO BE SOLVED IN SOCIETY ALL OF A SUDDEN PERSONALIZED LEARNING ALGORITHMICALLY DOESN'T WORK ANY MORE. >> Steve: YOU GUYS IN EDUCATION ARE GREAT AT THE JARGON. THERE ARE WORDS I HAVE NEVER HEARD BEFORE. THE IDEA OF CONSTRUCTIVISM WHEN IT COMES TO THE ACQUISITION OF KNOWLEDGE?
18:09
>> George: CONSTRUCTIVISM MEANS THAT YOU GENERATE KNOWLEDGE THROUGH ACTIVE ENGAGEMENT WITH SOMETHING. YOU CAN'T SIT THERE AND READ, WRITE. YOU HAVE TO MESS WITH IT, PLAY WITH IT. IF YOU AND I TAKE THE SAME COURSE WE'LL HAVE TWO DIFFERENT SETS OF KNOWLEDGE AT THE CONCLUSION OF THAT COURSE. I THINK IT IS A BROAD ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE BUT NOT IN ALL FIELDS. THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS WITH EDUCATION IS THAT WE TALK ABOUT IT AS IF IT'S A UNIFIED FIELD.
18:32
BUT IT'S A MESSY, CHAOTIC, STRATIFIED DISTINCT FIELD WHERE TALKING TO A PHYSICIST WILL GIVE YOU A VERY OFTEN -- A DIFFERENT EPTIMOLOGICAL VIEW THAN SOMEONE IN GENDER STUDIES. >> Steve: NEW ONE. FRAGMENTATION IS A NEW REALITY. OUR LEARNING MODELS HAVE TO EMBRACE IT. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? >> George: IN THE PAST WHEN YOU GO TO UNIVERSITY YOU TAKE A COURSE AND THAT COURSE HAS BEEN NICELY PREPACKAGED. YOU WILL READ ONE TEXTBOOK YOU WILL DO THE QUESTIONS AT THE END SO TO SPEAK AND YOU GET A
19:03
COHERENT VIEW OF THAT DISCIPLINE OR THAT KNOWLEDGE TYPE. NOW WITH THE WEB, IN THE LAST 10, 15 YEARS, HEAVILY IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS, ALL OF A SUDDEN, THOSE KNOWLEDGE PIECES DON'T COHERE THE WAY THEY USED TO JUST LIKE AN ALBUM HAS BEEN BROKEN DOWN INTO INDIVIDUAL SONGS. IN THE SAME SENSE A COURSE HAS BROKEN DOWN FROM A TEXTBOOK INTO SMALLER KNOWLEDGE ELEMENTS. SO EVEN IF I'M TAKING A COURSE AND AGAIN LETS GO BACK TO YOU BEING MY PROF.
19:26
SO I AM TAKING A COURSE WITH YOU AND YOU MAY HAVE A TEXTBOOK THAT YOU WANT ME TO READ BUT WHILE I'M READING THAT I AM GOING TO JOIN A GOOGLE GROUP TO TALK WITH COLLEAGUES. I MIGHT FOLLOW THEM ON TWITTER. THESE DAYS I MIGHT TAKE AN OPEN ONLINE COURSE WITH A GROUP LIKE COURSE-AIR OR FED EX. >> Steve: I HAVE DEFINITELY LOST MY MONOPOLY. >> George: THAT'S IT. WHEN WE LOOKED AT IT IN THE PAST EDUCATION WAS LIKE A WHEEL. WITH THE INSTRUCTOR AT THE CENTRE. A SPOKE AND HUB MODEL.
19:56
TODAY THE INSTRUCTOR IS STILL CRITICAL. THE COURSE BOOKS YOU SELECT ARE STILL IMPORTANT BUT THEY ARE NO LONGER THE CENTRAL PART. THEY ARE NOW A NODE WITH NUMEROUS OTHER KNOWLEDGE MODES COMPETING FOR WHAT YOU DO. >> Steve: EDUCATION TODAY IS ABOUT LEARNERS UNDERSTANDING RELATIONSHIPS NOT NECESSARILY MEMORIZING FACTS. AGAIN I'M QUOTING YOU TO YOU. WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT? >> George: I MEAN THAT IN A LOT OF CASES IF YOU GO TO UNIVERSITY -- CERTAINLY AT A
20:21
GRADUATE LEVEL -- YOU WILL GET INFORMATION PUT YOUR WAY. IN A LOT OF CASES OUR STUDIES AND EXAMS WILL TEST AND EVALUATE THAT. THERE WAS A VERY INTERESTING DOCUMENTARY CALLED "THE PRIVATE UNIVERSE." THIS IS ABOUT 20 YEARS NOW. THEY TOOK A GROUP OF STUDENTS GRADUATING FROM HARVARD ON GRADUATION DAY. THEY ARE THE SMARTEST PEOPLE BEST SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD AND ASKED THEM WHY DO WE HAVE SEASONS. AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM WERE NOT ABLE TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.
20:47
THEY HAD ALL KINDS OF CONCEPTUAL ERRORS IN HOW WE HAVE SEASONS OF WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU PUSH THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE THROUGH A SYSTEM AND THEY WERE ABLE TO ANSWER ALL THE QUESTIONS ON THE TEST SO THEY COULD REPEAT FACTS BACK TO YOU BUT THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW THOSE KNOWLEDGE ELEMENTS FORMED WHAT I WOULD CALL A KNOWLEDGE NETWORK. >> Steve: WHAT'S THE ANSWER TO THAT ACTUALLY? >> George: IT'S THE TILT OF THE EARTH ACCESS.
21:11
SOME STUDENTS FELT IT WAS HOW CLOSE THE EARTH WAS TO THE SUN BUT 23.5°° IS THE MAGIC NUMBER. >> Steve: I WOULD HAVE HAD A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ANSWER HOW WOULD YOU KNOW WHEN BASEBALL SEASON STARTS WHEN YOU HAVE SPRING OR HOCKEY SEASON WHEN YOU HAVE FALL. >> George: THAT WOULD BE A CONSTRUCTIVIST THINKING. >> Steve: AND I WOULD FLUNG. HAVING SAID ALL THIS HERE'S WHERE THE OLD FOLKY IN ME COMES OUT. THERE WAS A STORY I THINK ABOUT MEMORIAL UNIVERSITY IN NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR.
21:41
AND THEY WERE ASKING STUDENTS, YOU'RE AT THIS INSTITUTION OF HIGHER LEARNING AND INCIDENTALLY FOLKS WHAT IS THE LARGE BODY OF WATER THAT SURROUNDS THIS ISLAND? AND A LOT OF THEM COULDN'T TELL YOU THAT IT WAS THE ATLANTIC OCEAN. SO WE LIVE IN A VERY INTERCONNECTED WORLD NOW. WE LIVE IN A WORLD OF PERSONALIZED EDUCATION. WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE THE PROFESSOR IS NO LONGER THE HUB OF THE SPOKE. AND YET THERE ARE BASIC BITS OF INFORMATION THAT STUDENTS SEEM BLISSFULLY IGNORANT OF.
22:13
>> George: THIS IS WHERE THIS WILL BE CONTROVERSIAL. BUT MY VIEW TYPICALLY IS IF I CAN FIND IT ON GOOGLE I DON'T NECESSARILY NEED TO KNOW IT IN MY HEAD. WHEN IT COMES TO NAMING THINGS. IF MY DOCTOR HAS TO GOOGLE MY SYMPTOMS I'M A LITTLE MORE CONCERNED BUT ON THE ONE HANDY WOULD RATHER SHE DID GOOGLE THAN GUESS AND GET IT WRONG. BUT A LOT OF THAT KIND OF INFORMATION IF IT'S READILY ACCESSIBLE I THINK AS WE MOVE
22:35
FORWARD BOTH WITH OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM AND AS A SOCIETY WE'LL START TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE TECHNOLOGY AGE THAT WE HAVE AND USE ARE ACTUALLY PART OF OUR OVERALL COGNITION PROCESS. I REMEMBER IN THE PAST DOING MY OWN PH.D. AND MASTERS WORK IS I WOULD READ THIS, STUDY THIS, THAT. EVEN THEN I WAS EXTENDING MY INTELLIGENCE THROUGH THE PHYSICAL ARTEFACTS AROUND ME. IT HELPED ME THINK. NOW, WITH DIGITAL DEVICES, MOBILE DEVICES I THINK IT'S JUST AUGMENTING HUMAN COGNITION TO
23:10
THE DEGREE THAT IT'S PART OF OUR THINKING. >> Steve: OKAY. I HEAR YOU. AND LOOK, THIS IS YOUR BUSINESS NOT MY BUSINESS. BUT IT FEELS TO ME LIKE IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE AN ENGAGED CANADIAN CITIZEN AT THE DAWN OF THE 21st CENTURY, YOU'VE GOT TO KNOW WE'RE A PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY, OUR HEAD OF STATE'S THE QUEEN. YOU GOT TO KNOW THE PRIME MINISTER IS IN CHARGE OF THE GOVERNMENT. DON'T YOU NEED TO KNOW ALL THAT STUFF? >> George: I THINK IT WOULD BE GOOD THAT YOU DO KNOW THAT.
23:35
I WOULD ALSO THINK IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT THAT IN THE EVENT YOU DON'T KNOW IT THAT YOU KNOW HOW TO QUICKLY ACCESS THAT. HE SO I DO AGREE WITH YOU THAT THAT IS FOUNDATIONAL. BUT IF SOME OF THOSE ELEMENTS ARE LACKING IT'S ALSO ABOUT WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT. THE ABILITY TO NAME THINGS SUCH AS THE PARTICULAR, YOU KNOW, PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURES OR THE ABILITY TO TALK MEANINGFULLY ABOUT DEMOCRACY? IT'S GREAT IF YOU HAVE THOSE BASIC TERMINOLOGIES.
23:57
BUT YOU CAN STILL GO A LONG WAY TALKING ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS AND ETHICS AND FAIRNESS IN A DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM. YOU DON'T HAVE TO NAME ALL OF THE CANADIAN PRIME MINISTERS SEQUENTIALLY IN ORDER TO SAY THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING SOMETHING THAT'S WRONG AND I DON'T LIKE IT. AND THAT PART, CREATING ENGAGED CITIZENS THAT ARE WILLING TO LEARN FROM ONE ANOTHER AND PERHAPS ANOTHER WAY TO LOOK AT IT IS TO THINK IN A COLLECTIVE OR A CONNECTED MODEL BECOMES QUITE IMPORTANT.
24:22
>> Steve: I WILL MEET YOU HALF-WAY ON THIS. YOU GOT TO KNOW WHO THE PRIME MINISTER IS TODAY, THOUGH, DON'T YOU? >> George: ABSOLUTELY. >> Steve: OKAY. I THINK WE CAN MEET IN THE MIDDLE ON THAT. UDACITY RECENTLY ANNOUNCE THAT HAD THEY ARE IN COLLABORATION WITH GEORGIA TECH AND AT&T TO CREATE NOT JUST A COURSE BUT AN ENTIRE COMPUTER SCIENCE DEGREE AS A MOOC, MASSIVE OPEN ONLINE COURSE. IS THERE SIGNIFICANCE IN THAT IN YOUR VIEW?
24:51
>> George: WHAT'S SIGNIFICANT ABOUT EUDACITY IS U.S. STUDENTS GRADUATE WITH A STUNNING AMOUNT OF DEBT. BUT IT'S NO COMPARESON. THEY WILL HAVE ALL THEIR COURSE MATERIALS FOR FREE. YOU WILL BE ABLE TO TAKE AN ENTIRE MASTERS ONLINE NO FEE. IF YOU WANT RECOGNITION FOR THAT AND GET THAT STAMP THAT COMES FROM GEORGIA TECH YOU WILL PAY ABOUT $6 OR $7,000 WHICH IS STILL A FRACTION OF A COST OF WHAT WOULD BE TODAY TO GET A MASTERS DEGREE. >> Steve: AND THIS IS A GOOD THING?
25:23
>> George: ONCE AGAIN WE GET DOWN TO GOOD FOR WHO. IT'S GOOD FOR STUDENTS BECAUSE THEY ARE PAYING LESS. I THINK IT'S GOOD FOR SOCIETY BECAUSE YOU WILL HAVE MORE PEOPLE ENTERING THE COMPUTER SCIENCE FIELD. WHICH HAS TERRIFIC EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES BUT WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH CANDIDATES. >> Steve: GOOD FOR THE FUTURE OF BRICKS AND MORTAR OF UNIVERSITIES? >> George: I DON'T THINK IT CHALLENGES IT RIGHT NOW. IT MAY DOWN THE ROAD. IT MAY BE FOR PROFESSORSHIP AS A FIELD OF EMPLOYMENT.
25:50
BECAUSE ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU CAN TAKE A COURSE AT EUDACITY IS YOUR MAIN JOB TO STAMP AND MARK PAPERS. CAN'T YOU GET AN OPPORTUNITY OR TO DO THAT? IT'S GOING TO BE NEGATIVE FOR PROFESSORS IF THIS MODEL TAKES OFF SIGNIFICANTLY. >> Steve: ONE MORE THING, GEORGE, HOW CONFIDENT ARE YOU THAT DESPITE ALL THE CLAIMS THAT TECHNOLOGY WILL PROVIDE DIGITAL EDUCATION FOR ALL THAT THE CHANGE TAKING PLACE WILL ACTUALLY NOT DEEPEN AND ALREADY EXISTING EDUCATIONAL DIVIDE BETWEEN THE HAVES AND HAVE NOTES?
26:25
>> George: I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. AND THERE IS RESEARCH EVIDENCE AFTER RESEARCH EVIDENCE THAT EMPHASIZES YOUR INCOME IS IN A LOT OF WAYS A PRIMARY PREDICTER OF YOUR ACADEMIC SUCCESS. IF YOU COME FROM THE BOTTOM QUARTILE IN SOCIETY, CHANCES ARE YOU WILL NOT GET A DEGREE IN HIGHER EDUCATION OR YOU WILL NOT ADVANCE TO HIGHER EDUCATION IN A LOT OF CASES OR IF YOU DO TRY YOU ARE GOING TO FAIL. THERE ARE ISSUES THERE. THIS IS WHY I AM NOT A TECHNODETERMINIST IN TERMS OF ITS ROLE IN EDUCATION.
26:53
BECAUSE AT THIS POINT, ENCOURAGEMENT, SOCIAL INTERACTION, DISCOURSE WITH COLLEAGUES AND PEERS IS SO VITAL TO THE TED CASE EXPERIENCE. I THINK IN THE FUTURE WE WILL SETTLE ON SOMETHING A LITTLE MORE BLENDED -- AT LEAST IN THE NEAR TERM -- WHERE WE WILL HAVE CERTAIN THINGS ONLINE TO REDUCE PART OF THE COST OF EDUCATION BUT THOSE STUDENTS WHO ARE MOST AT RISK OF DROPPING OUT FROM EDUCATION WILL LIKELY SUFFER MORE IN AN ONLINE SYSTEM THAN IN-PERSON. >> Steve: THAT IS NOT A HAPPY DIAGNOSIS.
27:23
>> George: IT IS DISCONCERTING AND EDUCATORS SHOULD BE REFLECTING ON THAT. >> Steve: YOU HAVE GIVEN US A LOT TO REFLECT ON. GEORGE SIEMENS, ATHABASKA UNIVERSITY.
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