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0:03
Welcome to Talking, teaching the podcast where we explore the big ideas shaping education. Today. I'm your host, Dr. Sophie Special, and in this episode, we're joined by one of the most influential global thinkers in education, professor GI Bista. Git is a professor of educational theory and pedagogy at the University of Edinburgh, and also holds a position as Professor of public education at Main North University in Ireland. His research examines the purpose of education, the role
0:35
of teachers, and the relationship between education, democracy, and the wider world. Gert also recently delivered a keynote at the Ixy Congress. It's a global Congress this year held at the University of Melbourne. His keynote titled The Point of Education in an Age of Distraction, challenged us to reconsider what education is really for the true purpose of education with a multi-dimensional lens where he argues that education should move beyond solely child-centered
1:08
or curriculum centered schooling. Where he challenges the idea that teaching is primarily about control or knowledge transfer, highlighting the great importance of the teacher and the student. I can't wait to hear more about it. Welcome to Talking Teaching. Thank You very much. Can you tell us a little bit about you, where you're from and, and where this big journey and passion for education began? Yeah, I'm, I'm happy to do that. Uh, and I think it's helpful also to understand what
1:36
interests me and, and troubles me. Um, I'm originally from the Netherlands, and I was born in Rotterdam in 1957. The center of Rotterdam was destroyed in the Second World War because Germany wanted to occupy the Netherlands. And they said, we will bomb one of your cities every day until you surrender. And they started with Rotterdam, and then the country surrendered. Uh, and where I was born was exactly on the border of what was destroyed and, and the old part of Rotterdam.
2:11
So we lived in an apartment, and when I looked at the back, there were old houses, and when I looked at the front, it was empty space. So you can say as a, as a child, it was a big playground as well.
2:25
But what I came to realize over the years is that I'm really sort of, um, yeah, a post-war generation and that this reference to what, what happened there and what went wrong is, is always a, a big question.
2:42
And became also a big question in all my work on education,
2:47
uh, because Germany had wonderful education, um,
2:52
very high quality, high cultivation, um, whole person development as people say. So arts, culture, everything. So there was the question, what, what went wrong? How is it possible that that search and educational system led to search atrocities? Um, and it was a big trauma for German education scholars after the second World War that they said, what have we been doing in our schools, but also in our, our thinking?
3:25
And they began to realize that they forgot to ask sort of the, yeah, the most central question, um, which is not a question of learning or development, but it's the question of the, the person and how each human being yeah, tries to exist in the world and, and not forget that they are, um, free beings.
3:52
And that with that freedom, you can do the most horrible things and the most beautiful things. And that in a sense, what Nazi education became very good at was to never raise the question, what will you do with your freedom?
4:10
Um, and for me remains,
4:15
I think the, the center of everything I do and also how I look at education developments. To come back to that question, What was the next phase of, of your life to, to become where you are now and to, to go on that journey? Um, I was always interested in education from a very young age. Um, we played school at home, so school as a form in, in our culture is very prominent, and it has something interesting.
4:46
Then I went to school and I was not a very successful students, so I sort of barely managed to, to go from year to year and, and graduated with the, I think that the lowest, uh, scores that, And this is a common theme with people who become very passionate about education. Indeed. Yeah. Not so much that I thought, oh, it was all bad and I need to improve it, but it's, um, yeah, it puts you in a particular position to underst agreed, understand what education can do.
5:16
I went to university. I was the very first in my family who, who was able actually to go to university, but I had no idea what that was or how it works. So I got lost there after a couple of years. And then I got a job in a hospital simply because I wanted a job. Yeah. And not more education.
5:37
And there, I think I had the first experience of, of my own success in education. Um, I trained as a radiographer, so if needed, I can still take xray. Excellent, excellent. I'll keep that in mind. Note to self. Yes. And then there was someone who said, uh, Hey, we should be interested in doing some teaching in the courses we have here. And that was sort of someone who opened the door for me. Um, and then I enjoyed that. I did, um, teacher certificate alongside that,
6:08
and then I went back to evening university and did a degree in education.
6:13
Um, I found then already that a lot of what was happening in educational research was a bit superficial or, or trivial. So I ended up in, in the theory and history,
6:26
and I also did a degree in the philosophy of the social sciences. So that pulled me very much in, in that corner of, of educational scholarship. What did it mean for your thinking at that point? Um, I think I was always looking for the, the interesting ideas. Yeah. And, and the questions that are not mainstream, but that need to be asked.
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Um, that, that suits me. Also, I think it's something about, yeah, temperament. Some people can flourish in the mainstream. I think I, I flourish more in being a bit at an angle. I totally hear you. I feel exactly the Same. And I also came to realize that it's,
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well, it, it's easier to come up with, um, new answers to existing questions, but it's much more difficult to generate new questions.
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But I think the real advancements are, are made in all areas of scholarship when people ask a new question.
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So that's in a sense, my ambition, but also because I think, yeah, if we, if we accept all the questions and just generate more answers, in a sense, you, you stay stuck in where you are and you can't see that each question is, is always limited. It looks in a particular direction, or it gives particular parameters for answering the question. Do you come back to that notion of what is the purpose? Yeah. What can education do?
8:01
One thing that AI has immediately exposed that if we think that the best way to, to judge where our students are is by asking them to produce a text that no longer works. So we need to think differently. Yeah. Not about just the input, but it's how do we actually question things differently? Yeah. Which is what you've been doing forever. Yeah. Yeah. All these developments, in a sense, you can say they are helpful because if we look very carefully, they also reveal a lot.
8:28
But if we don't look carefully, if we let ourselves be distracted, that was part of the bigger message than before. We know it, we, we go with the flow. It also has to do with the fact that AI is learning technology. Mm-hmm. Um, and one of the things I've been working on for a long time is to say, look, the language of learning is not enough for education.
8:52
Um, so if we only say education is about learning, and don't ask what is the learning that matters? Because you can also yeah. Learn the most awful and horrible things like what happened in Nazi Germany.
9:05
What is distinctive about human beings 'cause is that they are moral beings that they can just learn because computers can learn, artificial systems can learn, but that they always can, and I think should ask the question, what should I do with what I've learned?
9:24
Now, if you forget that question, as a human being or as an educator, you miss something really important.
9:34
Um, and for me, that is also what AI is exposing, that if if we think human life is about learning, well then we, we don't understand what, what human life actually is about. And you had a chess board example, a three layered, three dimensional chess board that talked about the three dimensional components of, of education. Yeah. Could you explain that? So this goes back to this, this question, what is education for mm-hmm. What's the purpose of education? Um and
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one answer that people give is that they say, well, education is about learning. And the, the task of the teacher is to support or facilitate learning. And that's it, that's already not precise enough. Because yeah, as I said, you can learn all kind of things. So for an educator, there is already the question, what should be on the table? What's worthwhile to learn? Um, and there we have an important job to do, and I call that job qualification. Mm-hmm. Which is not about qualifications,
10:43
but it's to qualify our students to give them equipment for living, understanding skills capabilities. Uh, and there the, the school has an important task to do, um, but it's not the only task. And that's one of the things I find interesting that when you look at what education actually does, even teachers who say, I only focus on knowledge by doing that, they are already communicating all kind of values about this knowledge is valuable, this knowledge is not valuable,
11:20
or to focus only on knowledge. That's already a, a value judgment. So you can say, we're always already communicating traditions practices cultures. And then I would say that's actually a second explicit purpose of education that we provide children, young people with a, a sense of orientation in the world, cultures practices traditions um and you can call that socialization. And I think it's, it's a separate task to think very carefully, how do we open what kind of world
11:56
to our students and what kind of opportunities do we give them to get a sense of what, what matters there and where that comes from.
12:06
And then I would say there is still a third purpose for all education to take care of. Um, I use an odd word, subjectification.
12:17
Um, I have good reasons for doing that, but sometimes also art or stubborn words help a little to, to make people think, or at least stop and, and say, what's this about?
12:29
And very simply, you can say it's, it's to encourage
12:35
students to be a subject of their own life and not an object of all the forces that constantly try to tell us how to be and what to do and what to think.
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And for me, these are three legitimate purposes of all education. And I think in good education, you need to, to ensure that you work on these three purposes, or I call them domains of purpose, because there are many decisions to be made within each domain.
13:05
And then this, uh, this picture of three dimensional chess is a helpful one. Three dimensional chess is, is three full chess games on three chess boards that hang on top of each other. And each time you move a piece in, in one of the, the games, it also vertically impacts on the other two fields.
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And that for me is a nice image of the complexity of teaching, because even if we make a, a move just in the domain of knowledge or skills that communicates something about traditions practices values
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and it does something with the student as subject. So if we say to them, uh, here is, uh, history and history is that you can memorize and reproduce these historical facts and we're gonna test you next week, that also communicates to students history is just about memorizing facts, and it's telling to students, your only job is to succeed on the test, but not to, to have your own relationship with it.
14:18
Um, and that's a bad example of, of playing this three dimensional chess. So the, the, the beauty of teaching, and I enjoy that still every day in my own practice as a teacher, is to constantly have these three domains in, in your consciousness and yeah. Make moves that are significant for these three domains. And that's difficult and It is worth to do. It's, it's complex. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder how that fits with, um, graham nut's work in the, the hidden lives of learners.
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He talked about, described, uh, education or for students that it was like being a part of being within an orchestra and whatever teacher they had at that time, they actually knew what the conductor's moves would be. Mm-hmm. And the orchestra would respond in that way. Yeah. Do you think that students know the moves in a sense that the teacher are going to make? I always say students are very intelligent. We shouldn't underestimate what they are able to see
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and what they are able to understand, not just about sort of the official curriculum. Yes. But they are brilliant at perceiving how the game is, is being played out. Um, so if you insult them by giving them really stupid things to do, um,
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then they will go with that. If they see that the rewards are there, but you don't get sort of, uh, yeah. You don't really touch them in, in any meaningful way. Mm-hmm. When students work with teachers for a while, uh, they also begin to recognize teacher style and, and things that teachers do, and they begin to re teachers. And they, I think good students always make a judgment about what, what counts here?
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Um, and then of course, there is the question, what do you do as, as teacher?
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Do you just say, okay, we know that this all is quite a silly game, but the rewards at the end are significant, so let's just focus on the exam. Mm-hmm. Or do you say, actually there is more in the world and we, we need to bring that into the classroom as well.
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You can do that directly.
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Um, but there are also many indirect ways in which I think as teachers, you can Yeah. Raise awareness for students' own existence. Um, What does that look like in a classroom, do you think? Or in a school context? Uh I uh
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I've taught at quite a number of higher education institutions, and I still remember one day when a student suddenly said, uh, you know, you never give an answer to any question we ask.
17:21
And that's absolutely true, because if they ask a question, of course, I can give the answer. Most questions I can answer. That's not the point. But educationally, it's not interesting that I can answer that question. It's far more interesting that I open up a possibility for them to work towards the answer of that question. So is that intentional? Um, it, it's partly intentional, partly also, it, it disappears and it becomes part of your habitus as a teacher.
17:54
But it was so nice that the students said, Hey, uh, I realize actually that you, you keep playing back these things to us. And then I said, yeah, for good reasons. And they, they got it. Yeah. So would you say that that's almost a bit like prompting and elaboration and that you're, you're digging deeper, getting the students to be curious and creative? Yeah, That is, um, yeah, that's the art of teaching. Um, where I can say actually all the, the decisions
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teachers make about what to do are very situated. You're constantly responding to yeah. The students you work with and the context in which you're working, but always with sort of a, a frame of reference about what the, the purpose of what's going on is.
18:43
Um, and I think, yeah, also in this example, but, um, in all the teaching I do, and I think in, in an awful lot of teaching that good teachers do, you play a question back to the student because you want them to, to be there as subjects of their own life. Mm-hmm. And if they think the game is just to find the right answer to the question and get that from someone else, then you don't open up a, a space for them to, to take, you can say responsibility for what happens there.
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Is that saying things like, what makes you say that? Why do you think that?
19:23
Um yeah. Sometimes you, you can do it in, in all kind of ways. Uh, What do you think has worked for you or that you've seen work in other contexts? Um, I always, in my own teaching sort of try to, to push students to a, a point, which, which can be difficult,
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but where at some point there is a little breakthrough where they realize, oh, wait a minute, actually
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I am asking something of the teacher that is actually a question for me. Um, Like an aha moment. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh, or a moment of awakening. I still remember really interesting experience where I gave my students a book to read, and I knew that the book was quite difficult, but that's fine in higher education. And then they came back after a couple of weeks and they were all very angry at me because they said, how can you give us such a stupid book?
20:30
Um, and I thought that was a beautiful moment. Of course, I could have gone into justification and say, oh, no, sorry, it is a wrong task, or I should give you an easier book. But I was able to just stay with that up to the point where when students started to realize, oh, wait a minute, uh, there is something for us to do here. A book that's difficult is not something you can just blame the book for. Maybe you need to do different work to engage with that.
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So for me, that was also a really nice example. It's not that I would deliberately put impossible books on the curriculum, but suddenly it, it was, yeah. Very important moments where students then started to realize, we can't blame the book for this. We can't blame the teacher for it. There is also an effort needed from us.
21:21
Uh, but do you think that that's, that sits with high expectations that, that so often in school and, and whether it's early learning mm-hmm. Right through to higher education that
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the expectations are, are not high enough? Um, I see an awful lot of talk about high expectations. Yes. And there was something I don't like, because very quickly it becomes high expectations in terms of the, the task we give students. Yeah. Right. But actually, the, the highest expectation we can give students is to say, where are you in relation to all this? And that's a very different way to give meaning to this idea of high expectation. Mm. Um, so if you just say, oh,
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it's a very complicated task, but if you work hard and here are the success criteria and blah, blah, blah, then you think that the height has to do with the, the height of the task you give them. But to really, again, this metaphor I used yesterday to say, to knock on the door of the student and to say, is there anyone there who, who actually wants to engage properly with what we're looking at? And wants to not just see that as a task you need
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to perform on, but something that may has have significance for, for your life in the future?
22:40
Considering the beginning of the podcast, you talked about your own life. Do you think that that encapsulates a lot of who you are and this development of those ideas that so many of these components matter, and you've really learned that through your experience as your own personal experiences? Yeah. So this wasn't clear to me when I started out as a teacher. Um, and not even when I started out as a scholar. So this really took time to find words for it.
23:11
Uh, but I would now say, for example, that what went wrong in, in Nazi Germany is that they were brilliant at socialization. They were rather good at qualification, but they paid no attention to subjectification. Hmm. And then you have systems that
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perform really highly, but if they forget to Yeah. Take care of the soul, of the, the person, they become utterly dangerous. That context is so important because it actually highlights the significance of, of that third component, I think. And without that,
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You got a, a system that can perform brilliantly, but that forgets the, the human dimension. The human dimension. And I think, think that's the, that's the, the lesson from Nazi education. Yeah. Um, I wonder, you, you also reflect on the external and internal distractions that pull us away from the central purpose or the central questions. And, um, what, what do you see as the biggest distractions in education today and both internal and external?
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Ooh, That's a big one, isn't it? Where do I start? Yeah, Wherever you like. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Um,
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I think one big distraction for education is that it's surrounded by, um answers. Mm-hmm. That, uh, come with a lot of promises. Like, if you do it like this, then in a couple of years, all problems will be solved. So there are big, big promises. Um, and I use the word answers because an answer is always an answer to a question. And quite often it just comes in like an answer, but it doesn't ask to, to what question is this actually an answer? Hmm. Um, so I worry
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how quite a lot of governments have jumped on this idea that teaching should be informed by research evidence.
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Um, and when you look at the evidence that they refer to, it's very one dimensional
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correlational studies about, uh, qualification.
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Uh, and it, it looks like it promises a lot. These lists, like these are the 10 most impactful things you can do in teaching, but only on a very narrow idea of what education should be. So for me, this is quite, um, a big distraction for education that apparently it's, it's not easy even in education to, as I, yeah. I've put it in some papers recently to take education seriously.
26:16
Um, and in order to take education seriously, you need to be able to, yeah. To generate these educational questions like the one about learning where you can say, if we think that we know enough, if we have learning theory, or if we think we know enough, if we know how the brain works, then we cannot make the distinction between Nazi education and, and other kinds of education. Mm-hmm. Because yeah, Hitler also had a brain, that's not the point. Hitler learns an awful lot,
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but what he did with that, that is where the, the critical difference lies. Mm-hmm. So it's, I worry a lot about, yeah. All the energy also in, in educational research
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that does big things, um, comes with promises for the future, but often doesn't ask the most fundamental questions.
27:19
Okay. And that creates distraction,
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The idea of the three dimensions. It, it's such a, um, a beautiful visualization, I think, to see the importance of it. Do you think that whether it's in a university context or a school context or a political context, that people wonder, how do I do that? Um, I have two responses to that. Um, one is this discussion about the basics. So I, I see people who you look at my work and say, yeah, you're right, that's what we should be doing, but let's focus on the basics first,
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and then we have time for the rest.
28:03
And then, but that's me. I would say, yeah, I agree. We should focus on the basics first. And the most basic question is the question of subjectification. If we don't take care of that question, then everything else is immaterial. But most of the people say, well, the basics are reading and writing and counting and mathematics, and we need to do that first, and then that other question comes later. Um, so that's, that's one problem there, this whole discussion about what, what is basic
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or what is fundamental.
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The other thing, which I always consider to be sort of the, the biggest compliment that people make about my work is not that they say, oh, yeah, here's a theory that we need to try to apply.
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But when people say, your writing gives language to what we feel, and often people say, and we have, we have lost that language.
29:05
Um, so I do not just speak at academic conferences or only traveled to universities, but I, I'm quite lucky that I get invited by a lot of schools who say this, this helps us to speak about what we know we are doing and should be doing. And they say, it helps us also to speak back against
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policy that constantly wants to narrow what we are doing.
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Um, so if you ask, is this possible, I would say it's actually happening, and we need to make an effort to, to give language to it and to see what the importance of it is, and then also to make sure that good education policy supports that rather than that policy, which again, I see in a lot of countries tries to take over from teachers by saying, the policy is gonna tell you what you need to do, you no longer need to do, make those decisions yourself. Mm-hmm. And I think
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that's a problematic development in, in policy as well. And I wonder about the idea of socialization. Uh, a lot of people who come onto the podcast talk about the idea and the importance of belonging. Where do you see belonging within those three elements? I understand it. So if, if education is organized in such a way that no one feels at home, or no one feels that they have a right to be there,
30:41
that's, that's a problem. Mm-hmm. But if, if the belonging becomes too strong
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and it, uh, it begins to Yeah. Overpower in such a way that, that students no longer ask the question, is this really where I want to belong? Mm-hmm. Or should belong, then there is a problem.
31:03
Um, again, and it, it, I know the argument is a bit blunt, but Nazi education and Nazi youth work was very good at creating a very powerful sense of belonging. Um, but of course it was, was to belong in, in to something that was Yeah. Utterly corrupt and, and inhumane. Mm-hmm. So even with the notion like belonging, there was always the question Yeah. Belonging to what Yeah. In such a way that you don't forget yourself in that. And I, I read a lot of documents that talk about the future
31:39
of education, and they say, we need to get rid of traditional schools. We need, uh, powerful flexible learning environments in which, uh, learners learn from real life situations because then they get really useful knowledge and skills, and they don't need teachers for that. Teachers just need to facilitate or be a coach. But a lot of that can happen. And some people think, oh, that's the future of education. And then what I did is I showed, uh, pictures from
32:08
children working in the mines in, um, yeah. These were pictures from Britain from early part of the 19th century. And I said, if you want an example of a powerful learning environment there, you have it Quite confronting too, isn't it? Yes. If you want to see what it means to get useful knowledge and skills in order to flexibly adapt to the situation you're in, there you have it. If you want to see how learning goes without teachers, there you have it.
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But of course, it's, it's an awful situation. That's why I said why the, the struggle to get children out of the mines and into the school and to, to think the school is not there to get children back into the mines as quickly as you can, but to really Yeah.
32:56
Open up time and open up the world in far more complicated ways, um, precisely in these three domains of purpose. That is the, the task of education. And to have this image that if we dissolve, if we think the, the school is of the past, rather than to say, look, school is really time that we need to protect. I love that from the economy, from
33:23
very problematic political ideologies that are also Yeah. Going around in the world. The school is very precious, so don't think that school is only of the past. The same with the, the teacher. The teacher is not just a facilitator as teachers, we have things to give, not in terms of control or to say, this is what you should learn and we'll test you on it. But again, I said curriculum, um, is to, to open up worlds for students where they didn't even know that there was a world
33:59
or there was a world for them that they, they can enter.
34:04
Um, or the gift of this difficult question, where are you in all of this? That's also a gift. And that gift was withdrawn in Nazi education Yeah. By saying, yeah, you, you do not really matter. As long as you're a good Nazi, then you've done your job. That's, that's awful. Of course. Yeah. This is a progressive case for the school. Don't just think that the school is outdated. There is something really important actually in our time about this protected time and space
34:38
and a progressive case for teaching, because teaching is far more than just controlling students.
34:47
Certainly it is a very precious gift and a very precious time. Yep. You, your work, um, more recently, world centered Education, the rediscovery of teaching. What, what are the components of, of both of those that you could share with our listeners? Um, so world centered education, just as a phrase, comes out of, um, an observation that when you look at the history of education, it's, it's a pendulum. And you can always see at one point, a lot of people say,
35:18
oh, the students should be in the center and not all this pressure and knowledge, and then it swings to the other side and say, oh no, the curriculum knowledge that's important. Mm-hmm. And not all this discovery learning. Mm-hmm. Uh, the funny thing is that it goes back and forth all the time. Mm-hmm. Um,
35:35
and that you can say, this is an old insight. Dewey has already, uh, articulated it very well where he says, we need both. You need a child and a curriculum. And our job as educators to begin with is to bring the two together. So that's partly then a critique of child or student centered education or curriculum or knowledge centered education. And then I was thinking, could it help to have a different notion?
36:04
And yeah. The basic insight is why do we bother, why do we bring children and curriculum together? Because we want to prepare and encourage them for a life in the world. Mm-hmm. And therefore, you can say the, the real center, the real point of orientation is the world in which our lives take place. So that's, that's one thing about world centered education, which are like, as a phrase and other people Yeah, that's great. Begin to like it as well.
36:34
But then one problem we are facing, and it has to do with environmental problems, for example,
36:41
for a very long time, and I think we're still in the middle of it, we, we have thought of the world, I call it as you shop, where you can just walk in and you take what you want mm-hmm. And you walk out again. Mm-hmm. You have to pay at the exit, but that, that's it. Um, and the other, yeah. The, the turn I do in the book is that I say, look, the world is not just an object that we can do it. What we want with the world is not even just an object to learn about or to understand,
37:11
but the world in the broader sense also asks something of us. Yeah. The social world, other human beings, you are not an object for my learning. You are a person I'm in conversation with. So this idea that the, the world actually puts questions in our direction and in a sense also knocks on our door and asks, Hey, where are you? That's the other big idea in world centered education. And then to say, how can we foreground those ways in which the, the world is Yeah. Significant in our lives.
37:48
And it's a question for curriculum as well. Yeah. That's, that is, that is absolutely so interesting. There's, there's so much to consider here. And, and, and, and like, uh, my colleagues, I, uh, I agree. You really do make people think What helps me in, in looking at everything I encounter in Yeah. In educational research and policy, is whether it can distinguish between bad forms of education and good forms of education.
38:22
Um, so we've spoken a lot about Nazi education, but for me, that is such a helpful test to say, if what we're proposing here for education, if that is also applicable to what happened in Nazi education, then we, we shouldn't pursue that. Mm-hmm. Um, so maybe that's, that's an important takeaway that he'll always ask that question. Yeah. If we just say, uh, we need to do everything to make sure that children learn,
38:58
then you can say, yeah, I know examples where children learned an awful lot and it led to horrible consequences.
39:07
Um, so maybe that's the, um, yeah.
39:11
How shall we call it? You can call it the Nazi test or, yeah. But it's, it's, it's somewhere there. And the reason why I wanted to, to say a few things about my own biography mm-hmm. Is, is to say that's partly where it comes from. That I, yeah. I'm still close to that experience where things went so wrong, uh, but I was speaking to a colleague who said, yeah, we are of that generation, but it's also important to look at different reference points for
39:46
where education actually becomes part of the problem. And I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you two, as our listeners have, have enjoyed hearing Gert. And so I would love you to come back at another time and, and explore more. So for our listeners, we'll have links to gerts recent publications and resources in the show notes. So be sure to check those out and subscribe to talking teaching online so that every episode comes directly to you.
40:13
Gert, thank you so much for joining me today on Talking Teaching. Thanks you very much for the opportunity. It was lovely To do. It was just such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much. Um, this podcast was recorded at the University of Melbourne in February, 2025. Thank you to our entire podcast production team. And until then, bye for now.
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