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0:02
Good evenin
0:05
Good evening everybody. Well, hi Good evening everybody. Well, hi this is a. public event. ent, which is which is. selling celebrating the launch of celebrating the launch of a new book by Professor Paul Kelly book by Professor Paul Kelly call conflict Warren revolution. and the and the event is org and the event is organized by the the event is organized by the LSE. government department. nt, of which I used to be a member member of which I used to be a member and which ball is a curtain
0:29
which ball is a current member. And by LSE friends, which is. I am the I am the editor in chief I am the editor in chief and I see am the editor in chief and I see presses. an open an open access digital press an open access digital press. Although we Although we can buy it on paper Although we can buy it on paper copies of our books our main job is to produce open job is to produce. Open Access books that can be downloaded free of charge. from anywhere in the world any
0:48
from anywhere in the world any peace from anywhere in the world any pC or a tablet, any phone. with you if you've got an internet connection you can access. s the full text of our book s the full text of our books with the full text of our books with low. score Scaring of your data or anything Scaring of your data or anything else that kind of just instead else that kind of just instant Free download. the book book. And of course we rely huge the on the instant free download the book.
1:07
And of course we rely huge the on the generosity of academics and authors who are willing to. advance advance open social science advance open social science of which, professor carey. ey is one so let me ey is one so let me introduce professor Kelly, and also. on too on two distinguished two distinguished. commentators who were who were very pleased to. have with us. have with us. nationalism a phrase that and professor Kimberly options. Now, physically has been at the LM
1:31
Now, physically has been at the LSE government to holland for. quite a long quite a long time, almost quite a long time, almost as long as it was but but long as it was when I was there , but he's a very well known political theorist and political. thought thought expert thought expert and And he's also been And he's also been a. a pro vice chancellor Pro a pro vice chancellor Pro director of the, of the LSE director of the, of the LSE for many years. And so And so he's a person who
1:53
And so he's a person who's very And so he's a person who's very very competent have lots of things that the rest of us can't hope to be in can't hope to be including can't hope to be including writing this wonderful book which is. is the latest of his series of. his series of. political political for books of course the most recent was. s the magisterium political s the magisterium political thing has published. Five years ago with. ago with. David bouche. And Paul has had a very distinct
2:13
And Paul has had a very distinctive academic career in distinctive academic career, including anything political studies where he did. d all the work and I have a sort of d all the work and I have a sort of little bit involved, and of little bit involved, and ethics of little bit involved, and ethics. ethics and we're very, very and we're very, very happy to have with us.
2:47
since 1998 since 1991. 1, and one well 1, and one were very happy, very 1, and one were very happy, very to have her with us because. one of our speciality. y is is is policy y is is is politics and bye y is is is politics and violence and. And she also spans across between And she also spans across between the politics and the philosophy. faculty that. t Oxford and Oxford, and also with us. is Kim. Professor it Professor Kimberly hutchings London. Kimberly an international
3:18
an international relations, Pro an international relations, Professor and she's been Professor and she's been at war Professor and she's been at wolverhampton university. where where she had her first job and then where she had her first job and then Adam will he was head of depart then Adam will he was head of department for a long time. And then came to LSE And then came to LSTM was also head of department there so. really really. you know again something again, something about floor
3:42
And she's mostly she's most famous for her book. globe global ethics and introduction global ethics and introduction, which have a second edition come out which have a second edition came out in 2018. And of course of a. ourse contributed to the real contributed to the recent feminism and international relations, but which has been. making making quite a few waves making quite a few waves in the field quite a few waves in the field. So I'm going to hand over to So I'm going to hand over to
4:02
call is consult for about 10 minutes call is consult for about 10 minutes, and then. it was it was about them Kimberly well Elizabeth and Kimberly will each spam Elizabeth and Kimberly will each spend 1015 minutes each commenting on the book and commenting on the book, and pull. calls course book is called conflict course book is called conflict war and revolution and war and revolution. And it's theme is really. about about the room about the recurring import of violence. and power
4:24
theme is really about the recurring importance of violence and power politics and aggression in international relations. is the is the theme that a lot of those is the theme that a lot of those I thought, That's certainly myself. Hoped would go away. 10 would go away, 10 or 15 years ago. that was was a sort of golden age of. f utopianism in utopianism in international. political political thought and thought. And Paul has really And Paul has really review And Paul has really revived and
4:46
And Paul has really revived and recessive hide a whole. string strand of debate starting it strand of debate starting with few cities and then running forward through that forward through that. Galaxy of other things. as include including seem to including st Agustin like you kids including st Agustin Mikey very lock including st Agustin Mikey very lock. Thomas Hobbes Russa Thomas Hobbes Russo. Thomas Hobbes Russo outfits.
5:13
So it's a very imp So it's a very interesting and completely different perspective completely different perspective. really on internet really on international relations, thinking, but it relations, thinking, but it's one that. t sadly it's incredibly sadly it's incredibly relevant for. r our times that we're our times that we're now learning. eir lives ving in a situation, right ving in a situation right at this moment where the. the russian Federation has 100 russian Federation has 100,000
5:34
russian Federation has 100,000 russian Federation has 100,000 ght at this moment where the, the Russian Federation has 100 000 troops poised to do something every Nick quite knows what exercise. or invasion. Pick your hands on the ball. borders of you of Ukraine. Meanwhile China. keeps keeps saying that saying that they will be. That sounds some stage. Really occupying reuse Really occupying re unifying taiwan Really occupying re unifying taiwan with the, with the motherland. So these are very
5:58
very big conflict. licts that really licts that really go to the heart of the international system. And so I it. just just wonderful to see just wonderful to see from a book just wonderful to see from a book that brings the whole. book that brings the whole. e centuries of experience e centuries of experience that I'm going to give him. m a measly 10 minutes m a measly 10 minutes just to kick off and take us kick off and take us through some. Thank you, Patrick and
6:27
Thank you, Patrick. And thank you, especially to those lists you, especially to those lists and to kim. for being here too for being here to comment on this book tonight. So this book tonight. So, let me introduce the book. It's It's conflict Warren revenue It's conflict Warren revolution. It's a book of political It's a book of political theory, I think it's important to say that think it's important to say that. First and foremost. st, I covers, very imp I covers, very important. issue
6:51
issues that are, are all that are are also dealt with. th expertly by different expertly by different colleagues. at LSE at LSE who know far at LSE who know far more about save at LSE who know far more about say the comparative Politics of revolution or. or. or Conflict Studies, This is a a political theory book political theory book. It comprises study It comprises studies have now It comprises studies of nine individual thinkers, they're all men individual thinkers, they're all men.
7:18
And there's a concluding sa And there's a concluding essay, which tours together some theme which tours together some themes. Each chapter is free Each chapter is free standing and Each chapter is free standing. he's offers an overview of the main. political ideas of the thing political ideas of the thinker's concerned. So it's not a history and So it's not a history in A straightforward sense. Okay, there's no single and Okay, there's no single Okay, there's no single underlying theory or
7:39
underlying theory or. argue argument though argument that these things argument that these thinkers contribution, there's no doctrine doctrine contribution, there's no doctrine that I'm telling the story of, I think it's important to say that first. st and foremost, it st and foremost, it and foremost, it would and foremost, it would be easy, but be easy, but wrong to say. o see this as a see this as a sort of all. alternative health him alternative history of real alternative history of real
8:01
alternative history of realism in iR alternative history of realism in iR, which is a different thing. Connect connected, but it is a different but it is a different thing. And instead. I want I want to give an alternate I want to give an alternative story about why I've story about why I've brought these thinkers together. there They're all important they They're all important. They all say something about the key say something about the key issues that patrick mentioned
8:21
in his introduction, but in his introduction. But what is what is bringing this But what is what is bringing this together. So let me start this together. So let me start at. t the end, perhaps that t the end, perhaps that's the best place to start best place to start. And the last substantive chapter last substantive chapter last substantive chapter is called Schmidt. and. and. t, and My concluding over t, and My concluding overview t, and My concluding overview cover
8:40
and My concluding overview covers. in political theory in political theory. And the two are linked. But the linkedIn the complex the linkedIn the complex way, so. o why start with Schmidt o why start with Schmidt, white So why start with Schmidt, why my. y end the book what am I started y end the book what am I starting now as smooth as part of the unifying story. Smith was as many women Smith was as many will know.
9:12
But he's also been But he's also become a. icon iconic figure on both iconic figure on both the political left and the political right. and just And the reason for this. s has largely to do with s has largely to do with the way in which Schmidt, is a prop in which Schmidt, is a provocation. to me Too much professional political much professional political theory. of his rejection of the instrument. instrument. of Politics. s and his assertion of the price and his assertion of the privacy
9:40
of conflict. and confrontation. And this, he stands as And this, he stands as I say it's a constant provocation. n to walk on n, to what I was confronting n, to what I was confronting as the sort of Dominant orange the sort of Dominant or a note, and over. verly DOMinant voice in verly DOMinant voice in political theory, which political theory, which is a sort of political theory, which is a political theory, which is a sort of rational cosmic. litan of view a view that soul
10:01
a view that saw the challenges of view that saw the challenges of political theory is theory is, you know, making As you know making clear and. and supporting the and supporting the relationships and supporting the relationships between. individually individuals and groups individuals and groups and so on individuals and groups and so on on fair terms of cooperate on fair terms of cooperation in an on fair terms of cooperation in an increasingly globalized an increasingly globalized
10:19
world assuming, perhaps world assuming, perhaps. that history was Mark that history was Marching towards globalization. So the challenge. ge is to that cosmopolitan is to that cosmopolitanism.
10:45
So what do I want to say what do I want to say about this. Right realist political theory political theory. Okay. real realism comes in many realism comes in many forms. International Relations Scott International Relations Scholars will be very familiar with realism as the salt of realism as the sort of you know DISA realism as the sort of you know DISciplinary norm that pretty much DISciplinary norm that pretty much everybody. reject rejects, but it means but it means something very
11:06
specific. in. have turned to read turned to realism, and again. , what I want to do was to , what I want to do was to draw out what I want to do was to draw out what. t's significant about that as the sort of unifying stay the sort of unifying story of the book. the book. Some of these realists of these realists perspectives of these realists perspectives which. eject the idea of eject the idea of morality, or two eject the idea of morality, all together they argue for chasing. d Paul
11:33
to politics based on in to politics based on interest and the conflict of interests er politics and so er politics and so on, get that done er politics and so on, because that doesn't have to be the only realists. store story part story. Part of the argument. that many political theory that many political theory realists make is that right realists make is that realists realists make is that realists do except the. idea of the norm. gov idea of the norm governed conception of the political,
11:52
but they see those norms that ut they see those norms internal to the practice of Paul. itics whatever whatever that itics whatever whatever that itics whatever whatever that thing politics is thing politics is the norms come from come from the way in which it. it's done wrong it's done, rather than serve it's done, rather than serve as sort of external impositions sort of external impositions and checks on. how it should be done. So the site of politics is So the site of politics is constant
12:13
the site of politics is consequently. know not irrelevant. And one And one of the things I wanted to do And one of the things I wanted to do with these different thing is is for on political thing is is for on political theorists who for. theorists who for. for various sorts of various sorts of reasons, them various sorts of reasons, and contextual, but also theory. retical see the retical see the site of policies see the site of policies place where. e fundamental political activity
12:37
e fundamental political activity takes place as being something that is ambiguous. , and controversial and , and controversial and is an important part of how we think important part of how we think about Politics. about Politics. so the site of Politics politic so the site of Politics is not irrelevant. In contrast to call In contrast to cosmopolitanism In contrast to cosmopolitanism In contrast to cosmopolitanism, which contrast to cosmopolitanism, which basically. reduces.
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s all political questions s all political questions to the relationships between in relationships between individuals conceived in individuals conceived in different ways. , but always in terms of , but always in terms of some ethical category. Right. So the cosmopolitan stink the cosmopolitans think that ultimately. ly, we need to think about Paul ly, we need to think about Politics in terms of an ethical of Politics in terms of an ethical approach, which prioritises
13:16
approach, which prioritises the claims of in. ividually ividuals, and when ividuals, and where it differs is ividuals, and where it differs is how those individuals are conceived and recognized and. what goes with that what goes with that claim. So I wanted to. o partly react to partly react to that. I mean I mean, partly by I mean, partly by graphically it's coming back to that world after being in a, in a management role. e for 14 years for 14 years but it's also. It's also a row.
13:43
ecognition of the increase ecognition of the increasing, you know, political challenge you know, political challenge the real world Political challenge to what looks like an. effort ever more utopian vision more utopian vision politics. So that's why I wanted to that's why I wanted to turn to say. some resources, some some resources, some thinkers who some resources, some thinkers who give us.
14:16
now that to bring this to that to bring this to a conclusion. on is where a number of other IDeas come up. some which we may talk about more some which we may talk about more. The place of violence in how we political relations. approach A person who is not a A person who is not addressed in a discrete chapter, but he was a discrete chapter, but he was a discrete chapter, but he was very present. through throughout the book is how throughout the book is hannah are it. Okay, I mean it
14:41
are it. Okay. I mean, in a way, much are it. Okay. I mean, in a way, much of the. space space of interesting space of interesting political theory is somewhere between. to me Schmidt and aren't and that. t was part of the install was part of the inspiration. aren't orange aren't of us aren't of us directly in the fame aren't of us directly in the famous essay on violence. famous essay on violence.
15:08
it's where power it's where power really runs it's where power really runs out and politics itself. and politics itself. comes to an end. . Records to it is the . Records to it is the denial of Paul . Records to it is the denial of Politics. Now alternatively. Now alternatively. ly, many political theory so ly, many political theory sort of re ly, many political theory sort of recognize that but see it as prevalent, and therefore prevalent, and therefore see the task with politics as the
15:29
containment or them. anager of violence. But I so wanted to include some who deny that sort of it who deny that sort of Iranian position, who don't see policy position, who don't see politics as anti. hetical hetical to the bus to the perspective of Politics. s and equally don't just s and equally don't just see it as one of the tools that x as one of the tools that can be as one of the tools that can be exercised in politics. but in but in some sense they see but in some sense they see
15:51
violence. x violence exercised in certain violence exercised in certain ways, as actually definitive. Now, the obvious way. ay of seeing that ay of seeing that is through theory of seeing that is through theorizing war. But it's not just war, it it's not just wore this case. it's not just wore this case. violence e, violence is all over the place violence is all over the place in different ways. So, how we think about So, how we think about war or service So, how we think about war as a
16:13
response to the Exception emergency response to the Exception emergency and so on the, sort of emergency and so on the sort of backdrop that breaks through the backdrop that breaks through the thin veneer of. civil civilization and so on civilization and so on, all of that is.
16:27
why cloud services in why cloud services in the story. Okay cloud services in the story. Okay, as an activity. that is that isn't enough that isn't, in a sense, in isn't, in a sense, independent. nt of the way we think nt of the way we think about politics. And then finally. there is there is history. The challenge that. t the cosmopolitans t the cosmopolitans present some the cosmopolitans present some directly. Is this view, pop Is this view popularized by a bar Is this view popularized by a
16:51
bomber and lots of other people, you know. , that the arc of history is , that the arc of history is long but it tends towards justice long but it tends towards justice. History has. as no narrative as no narrative know as no narrative know as no narrative know sort as no narrative know sort of logic that redeemed. ms us. And it was precise ms us. And it was precisely that that us. And it was precisely that that I wanted to. address address by bringing in address by bringing in the
17:10
address by bringing in the ideas of center guston who. o argues that in a very specific argues that in a very specific.
17:21
a legacy for thinking about legacy for thinking about the way in which. redemption. History is the place where Politics happens as being too. Very very different things that very different things that should not be confused. So each of the thing because. covered covered contract contribute to this idea contribute to this idea of realist theory and realist theory. realist theory. And what they do is provide resources for thinking about political theory of seconds political theory so conception
17:47
of political. proof Right, one which is destroyed Right, one which is distinct Right, one which is distinct from the one which is distinct from the sort of. Cicerone In cars. idea. that the right. or justice, and or justice, and or justice, and prudence. e converge and e converge and justice always win converge and justice always wins. And whilst i've contribute And whilst i've contributed to that kind of. power paradigm of political theory paradigm of political theory. It's It's
18:14
paradigm of political theory. It's one that I'm not rejecting but also. one that one that I'm particularly console that I'm particularly concerned. that I'm particularly concerned.
18:26
have a very different view have a very different view about how the world works. So now world works. So not assuming that. everybody everybody will come out everybody will come down to my side of the argument and side of the argument and see that the arc of history is 10 that the arc of history is tending towards what I. think think is the best way of all think is the best way of organizing a political society. So that was So that was really the. e rational e rationale and the, the overview
18:46
e rationale and the, the overall e rationale and the, the overall narrative Linking these thinkers narrative Linking these thinkers.
18:55
Sorry. That's great. Cool, thank you very much. You didn't matter you very much. You didn't mention this day today. y point in y point in your 1010 minutes in production. is the state.
19:11
violence and violence, and so on violence. And so, and also. islands islands between states islands between states, is, is the islands between states, is, is islands between states, is, is the common form of war now. . Yes, I mean, the state . Yes, I mean, the state is a clear clearly an import. rtant part of the rtant part of the narrative of rtant part of the narrative of some of the chapters. Okay. The state Okay, the state and the centrality the state and the centrality of
19:32
the state, obviously. reaks reaks down when we get into the reaks down when we get into the, into the modern world.
19:44
to be moved out of the. to be moved out of the. e way. And so e way and see it's constant e way and see it's, it's sort of pay way and see it's, it's sort of claim to monopolize. e violence as part violence as part of its problem. And. nd it requires violence to disk it requires violence to dispense with that. And then with Schmidt you have this then with Schmidt you have this sort of ambiguous. for you view about the view about the central lm view about the central elements
20:04
of statehood sovereign of statehood sovereign power. you know You know the sort of key You know the sort of claim to. have. overall authority. of the of the domain of the political of the domain of the political all of those things become problem at eyes problem at eyes. problem at eyes. And where does those ideas. reside so the status. s very s very much part of the store very much part of the story. But if you think of the middle part if you think of the middle part
20:26
if you think of the middle part of the book. If we look at sort of hobbs. class classic state theorists you know classic state theorists you know Hobbs the state of nature is almost the sort of a model that. t you know neo realism t you know Neo realist take you know Neo realist take to explain. international relations. You think of law You think of law. Think of Russo, the state Think of Russo, the state is there, but it's there in very. there, but it's there in very. different
20:48
different ways and ways. And similarly, I thought of And similarly, I thought of cloud similarly, I thought of. Klaus if it's being an import. rtant contributor to that contributor to that.
21:06
and the military power and the military power of the and the military power of the state what is it is doing. , how does how is that can , how does how is that conceived and how does it relate. to a particular. model of the state. which which has come to be proud which has come to be problematic, and also. And also, Central to. Certainly And also central to certainly 20th century politics.
21:33
So it is there for him So it is they're very much. Great So it is they're very much. Great it is they're very much. Great. That's wonderful. Well. it's now It's now my pleasure to introduce the Fraser from New color introduce the Fraser from New then Elizabeth if you have Elizabeth if you unmute then we'll be able to hear you. you can do that. That's it That's it. So, over to you, Elizabeth. Thank you Thank you Thank you for for inviting me and for giving me the opportunity to read
22:00
giving me the opportunity to read. the book the book. And thank the book. And thanks very much the book. And thanks very much for that illuminating present for that illuminating presentation just now which I. have to say have to say to address some of the have to say to address some of have to say to address some of the issues that I'm going to re the issues that I'm going to raise so. think actually what you said think actually what you said render. What I'm going to. raise
22:18
raise otiose I hope not, but raise otiose I hope not, but I'd well if if that works. We're going to cut this thing short so we need to have a conversation. so I'm going to. I'm going to continue to say I'm going to continue to say what I what i do. hought I was going to say, and I was going to say, and.
22:42
And also, on And also, are linked by. an overarching. thing theme and some theme and some kind of story or and some kind of story although you. really really don't want it to really don't want it to be a very really don't want it to be a very very very tight story. very very very tight story. I think that I think that I think that is a technical problem I think that is a technical problem with publishing these days right, though, that days right, though, that. i do it myself. Goodness
23:05
i do it myself, goodness sake you know you download a single. le a single chapter and you le a single chapter and you don't want to be trampled by don't want to be trampled by having don't want to be trampled by having to read 100,000 words having to read 100,000 words or. or. more. But it did I do think that But it did I do think that it But it did I do think that it is a technical, and it. a technical, and it. s difficult s a difficult problem for all s a difficult problem for authors to
23:26
a difficult problem for authors to tackle. And, and I, you know, I say
23:38
from people's people's from people's people's books which nowadays we are able to which nowadays we are able to do so which nowadays we are able to do. So I don't want to be unfair. r but on the other hand I do r but on the other hand I do think that the kinds of the think that the kinds of the thread the. e arc that there might not be enough e arc that there might not be an Okta history but that does. on the whole n't need to be at all need to be at all, to a monograph. ograph
23:58
and I was in set and I was in several minds and I was in several minds about what the arc of what the arc of the plot of the what the arc of the plot of this monograph. really really really really really is really really is. So. this that the subtitle of that the subtitle of the book is The that the subtitle of the book is The problem of Politics.
24:20
so what. so what is. s the problem of Politics s the problem of Politics, of s the problem of Politics, of course, must it be to nurture this course, must it be to nature of course, must it be to nature of this when people save. he proper he problem, they usually mean he problem, they usually mean various problem, they usually mean various problem. blems or they don't have to blems or they don't have to mean there's one problem of politics there's one problem of politics but.
24:39
t politics is up politics is a problem. m for us m for international political for international political thought, and I have to thought. And I have to say i don't think I'm really don't think I'm really clear about exactly what. at is why Poetry is why Politics is. is a Problem. Any is a Problem, any more than. say law. w, might be a problem or w might be a problem, or as is w, might be a problem, or as is part of your own story. y why more y why moral play why moral play. and so also.
25:12
of course of course my our economic of course my our economic flows or of course my our economic flows or the fact that have occurred or the fact So of economy. And, well, and exploitation. So, anyway well So, in what way is it. that in what way just that in what way just the book address politics exactly as a problem for political thought well in your, your remarks. just now just now you sort of view address now you sort of you address that.
25:41
different thing because different thinkers and. d you have folks d you are focusing on to protect d you are focusing on to particular constructions of particular constructions of politics. , one of which , one of which, see , one of which sees the possibilities one of which sees the possibility of. Gotham Government and and order. r and legitimacy much and legitimacy.
26:06
And as, including the as, including the achievement. nt of morality of nt of morality of morality of morality of morality or ethics. s and unknown And another account. to pay to pay of politics, which politics, which sees it as. tied to a tied to a particular conflict tied to a particular conflict. particular particular people particular people's protect people's particular. places and places. And the way. which in which those two ways in which those two ways of thinking about Politics.
26:35
One is the aspiration One is the aspiration to conjure is the aspiration to conjure govern government governing Pro government governing Process and government governing Process, and the other as a conflict, right and the other as a conflict written. particular risk. stick struck ustic struggle type ustic struggle type Process, the way struggle type Process, the way in which those. e two ways of thinking about e two ways of thinking about politics then cash out when we
26:55
think about the relationships between states or well between states, or when we think about the relationships are key about the relationships across name about the relationships across nations across across. Polities. I'm not really sure that I'm not really sure that. t, Um, I think that that t I think that that is an interesting t I think that that is an interesting and very suggestive interesting and very suggestive. way, so to have. truct ng, and all ng, an argument, but
27:20
ng, an argument. But then I felt that ng, an argument. But then I felt that with some of the chapters and some of the sections within. n the chapters, I n the chapters, I was losing the n the chapters, I was losing the plot about the way in plot about the way in which politics is orange in which politics is or is not a problem for this thing. r and And I would it would have been And I would it would have been nice and, you know, it would be nice. actually actually to hear you say it
27:39
to hear you say a bit more. about about how that about how that how that actually about how that how that actually actually works. Then. n you've got that client n you've got that kind of July n you've got that kind of dualism going, I think. dualism going, I think. and then and then there's this other tool and then there's this other journalism, which is the realism journalism, which is the realism versus the IDealism. distinction, of which distinction of which you make
28:01
quite a bit of an introduction quite a bit of in the introduction and try to come back. ck to and and cons of ck to and and kind of deal with to and and kind of deal with in more cinematic way in the more cinematic way in the conclusion. And as you've just said your, your remarks there's all said your, your remarks. There's also another claim to have There's also another claim to do ality or another tension that say do ality or another tension that do ality or another tension that say.
28:17
between bye.
28:24
face up to that. And, and ask And an aspiration to pass And an aspiration to pacification, the hope that the pacification, the hope that the point of Politics is that it displaces violence and. things that used to be done by. y the sword coming y the sword coming y the sword. Come out now be done the sword. Come out now be done by the word. d, and you're, you're sort of d, and you're, you're sort of d, and you're, you're sort of Problem at i'm saying, both. of those those. I think what what.
28:45
I'm I'm again a question that , I'm again a question that I had when I came to the end of the book was whether I was supposed to be reading, though supposed to be reading those as supposed to be reading those as supposed to be reading those as frames for. frames for. understand history.
29:03
new forms of work new forms of war, or. what happened in the what happened in the english what happened in the english Civil War. And whether it And whether it be. And whether it be to treating those as a frame for those as a frame for understand. event. , and relationships , and relationships and structure , and relationships and structures so this is. is, this is how we ought to under is, this is how we ought to understand us hugger Monday understand us who are given in the.
29:32
late 20th century, for example late 20th century, for example late 20th century, for example. e, or whenever I e, or whenever I was, I should been using those been using those as a frame for been using those as a frame for understanding. anding texts and texts, and theories and texts, and theories and thinkers and I, my sense and I, my sense at the end was and I, my sense at the end was that the definitions again because of her. aving chapters that are aving chapters that are called
29:50
things like lock. ck or few cities or few cities. And it's is, is it that that And it's is, is it that that is the focus. or is it.
30:13
And you can't do either of them. perfect perfectly but i'd be really but i'd be really interested to know. really what way. y you would have you would.
30:32
central. Central Central to the book, I didn't Central to the book, I didn't look to see what time it was When I started, but I think. I only I'll leave my remarks there I'll leave my remarks there but thanks Paul for. for , for a full a full , for a full a full a full couple of days reading. Thank you very much, Elizabeth very, very interesting very very interesting and stimulating comments. And we're going And we're going to move on. stranger straight away to Kimberly so
30:58
straight away to Kimberly so that you've got the whole these. points points in your head if you, if in your head if you, if you will pull. professor of international. relations relations that Queen Mary university relations that Queen Mary university in London. So, thanks university in London. So, thanks Patrick and. thanks Thanks Paul. and as Lisa and, as you said you've given us and, as you said you've given us a good dose of reading to get through. which is which has been rather thumb.
31:23
which has been rather thumb. I enjoy reading I do enjoy revisiting particularly think as I call Gustin particularly think as I call Gustin who I have not. found to focus my attention on for quite a focus my attention on for quite a long time. So I'm going to say a few general So I'm going to say a few general things and it will pick up I think on some of the comments that Paul is made and that is Made in response to it. to pull. And again maybe. push poll a little bit
31:44
push poll a little bit on some of the things that. of the things that. some of the some of the themes that I'm quite some of the themes that I'm quite some of the themes that I'm quite intrigued him more from. m him in his voice or m him in his voice on, because the m him in his voice on, because the book is really interesting because, in a sense, it's, it's a quite a complex need me. mediation bit mediation between polls concerns. polls concerns. s and trying to do justice
32:03
s and trying to do justice to the concerns of the things that he's looking at. t the thinker's. Awesome t the thinkers are spread across a very long period of time we've got a very long period of time we've got two and a half thousand years. of thinking there. We've got very calm. mplex texts and argue mplex texts and arguments being engaged with so so it's a really, really big Project it really, really big Project, it's dealing with a great deal. al of mature al of material and all
32:25
al of material and argument is of material and argument in some ways. , I mean , I mean II , I mean I I like it very much, that , I mean I I like it very much that it's quite an old fashioned approach. on hospital things and drawing on hospital things and checks to interrogate big picture checks to interrogate big picture themes and ideas and picture themes and ideas and issues. issues. s, and that is always still and that is always stimulating. g and interesting for me
32:46
and interesting for me. I mean the introduction.
32:55
One is the nature of Policy One is the nature of Policy One is the nature of Politics itself and how we're to understand it and that's come up in. in both in both in both pools and there's this common in both pools and there's this comment so I won't say more about that but i think there's an interest. sting question question at the beginning. there's a there's a reference to politics there's a reference to politics as an autonomous way. of acting in your you'll
33:11
of acting in your comments just now of acting in your comments just now Paul you're talking about site and. And I would just be really into And I would just be really interested in in here in a bit more about. t how your understanding t how your understanding policy how your understanding. Politics. the press Somewhat different the press Somewhat different ways thinkers, you're engaging with ways thinkers, you're engaging with will be would be thinking. about it. it.
33:34
second big theme is obviously. the real the relationship between via the relationship between violence and Politics and violence and Politics. And I won't say anymore on that because it's already been raised because it's already been raised or I won't say much more about that. about that. don't we haven't really talked about it. s the role of temporality s the role of temporality in Paul t's already been raised or I won't say much more about that one we haven't really talked
33:51
one we haven't really talked about is the role of temporality in politics, which is something that's high, I've had an interesting day in for. some time time. One of the ways that sometimes piece One of the ways that sometimes people draw the contrast between the. kind of key kind of cosmopolitanism kind of cosmopolitanism that Paul is critiquing here. . And the more in . And the more in inverted commas religious tradition. commas religious tradition. on is in terms of a difference
34:08
on is in terms of a difference between a more kind of linear temporality of temporality of Progress. ogress and a more secular and the more cyclical temporary and the more cyclical temporary and the more cyclical temporality in and the more cyclical temporality in which you know there's rise, rise and fall of power and so on. I think one of the interesting things about these thinkers thinker's. nkers, is that over nkers, is that obviously they have nkers, is that obviously they
34:28
have quite different. I think temporality. is working working.
34:38
that question about Paul that question about Politics and temporality. because I think you've got because I think you've got you've got the jewels hand paralysis of all Gustin.
34:51
I'm a Christian temporality at work I'm a Christian temporality at work in in law. And you've got obviously the city And you've got obviously the cyclical story that you get in machiavelli some kind of t in Machiavelli some kind of intrigued as to where you would place yourself in those stores place yourself in those stories about temporality and. pull it And the other big thing which And the other big thing which I think you spoke to already very eloquently paul is, is the
35:13
meaning of significance of history. that also speaks to lose this that also speaks to lose his comments but I thought it was very ents but I thought it was very helpful what you said about you know what your. e trying e trying to make trying to make an argument is important argument is important that you know there is no single marriage. tried to tried to tried to get away and that again is part of this critique of of cosmopolitan. of of cosmopolitan. anism So we bought a book this
35:32
reflecting on these big themes. throughout through engagement with classical through engagement with th classical thinkers in doing that, it's also raised. ising questions about ising questions about political thing ising questions about political theory cannons, about the theory cannons, about the IDea of paradigms for political thought of paradigms for political thought. ques questions of interpretation questions of interpretation of interpretation of the relationship between
35:49
of the relationship between positive of the relationship between positivity and normal activity in political thinking. g, and also questions about g, and also questions about pedagogy, which I would like to. come back to us come back to. And fundamentally, that this this And fundamentally, that this this question that you really come to the end. The come to the end, the idea of a realist turn and political. theory theory and quite what that might theory and quite what that might mean
36:10
and quite what that might mean. mean. So I suppose what. I want I want to say about all of those themes and big themes and big questions is. themes and big questions is. is, I'd like to know more about what is, I'd like to know more about where you stand. Paul. We don't move on now. ow to a slightly different setup ow to a slightly different set of focuses. and. think you're doing in the book is to challenge is to challenge, and is to challenge and an old distinction between political. theory
36:39
theory on the one hand and Lynch theory on the one hand and international political thoughts or international relations theory. relations theory. on the other. On the other, Think this, this may be sort Think this, this may be sort of. Think this, this may be sort of i suppose there's two questions i suppose there's two questions I want to ask about that really. One is in Challenging. One is in Challenging. One is in Challenging that. t all your challenge you get century
37:02
t all your challenge you get essentially on the basis that it. rests on so rests on this problematic distinct ests on this problematic distinction between a realm of justice. e, and on the other and on the other realm of. of COnflict so good COnflict. So going back to. to lose this point. to lose this point. t, or are you also Chile or are you also Challenging it. t's not just in terms of not just in terms of trying to think about. policy politics differently from the
37:24
planet classical cosmopolitan sort of view but sort of view, but also think about ethics differently and I do about ethics differently and I do wonder whether it is part of the story it is part of the story, it is part of the story, particularly when we come to the stuff about the realest political term. Yeah at the end. So at the end. So, what at the end. So, what may connect some the end. So, what may connect some of the elements. ts of classical realist ts of classical realism and i
37:42
asked sense not neo realism asked sense not Neo realism but cast asked sense not Neo realism but casco realism and the real is turning political theory May actually be. e different ways of thinking about it different ways of thinking about ethics norm. County County and ways of things and ways of thinking about ethics. and all and more contextual list more contextual list approach to ethics. And I think in that respect to again I think in that respect again. that the challenge
38:00
that the challenge to the distinction between political theory and international theory theory and international fame your international relations theory, kind of. carries with it a lot of , carries with it a lot of really interesting philosophical baggage if you like a lot of really interesting question. that that we could open up further that we could open up further and I'd certainly do. a sin a sympathetic to the idea a sympathetic to the idea that actually one of the things we
38:19
need to do is not only think about Politics different things about Politics differently from that custom posts. that custom posts. n story but also ethic story but also ethics. differently rently on that realist question. on in your conclusion you on in your conclusion you pick up on these two different kinds. ds of meanings of real ds of meanings of realism, that ds of meanings of realism, the classical i'll sense to the state based positivist state based positivist privilege. power.
38:44
status quo, or status quo oriented mode a thing status quo oriented mode of thinking. And then you have this note And then you have this notion of realism in a more pragmatic sense realism in a more pragmatic sense maybe be. aybe linking a bit with the word aybe linking a bit with the work of people aren't that sleet, and of people aren't that sleet, and so on. and on And I'm kind of interested in And I'm kind of interested in how you may be or May not be how you may be or May not be
39:01
how you may be or May not be bringing those two things together. er so again so again something that it would be good.
39:11
And then last thing And the last thing I want to say something about. ut, is it ut is, is the broader ut is, is the broader kind of second or two questions perhaps at the book raises. raises questions about Cannons questions about Cannons questions about Paradise. digms interpreter digms interpretation, and digms interpretation, and Patrick digms interpretation, and Pedagogy now I think you you do. try to prevent. getting getting into those ends into those endless academic argument. argument.
39:39
ments about what's the appropriate ments about what's the appropriate method in the history political forward or whatever and I do appreciate that you don't want to get that you don't want to get bogged down in. those kinds of questions. But so, I'm going to focus But so, I'm going to focus my comments really on the page comments really on the pedagogy. issue issue because I think cannons issue because I think cannons are primarily about. pedigree And you acknowledge in your, you know
39:58
And you acknowledge in your, you know introduction that you know of course. e cannons can be made up e cannons can be made up e cannons can be made up of different ways that there's different ways that there's always you know different elements. involved involved that there's always ways involved that there's always ways in which you can contest, a particular cannon a particular cannon that's been put been put together. And you also very. explicit explicitly tried to
40:18
explicitly try to preempt I think try to preempt I think feminist critique. e of yes or no e of yet another me e of yet another male Canada e of yet another male Can within the e of yet another male Can within the within the book you know if you sit down. heese heese through through to schmidt. and I wanted the. piece of of work and I'm currently in. and as you know. and which and which is actually referenced by actually referenced by Paul in the book. ok is a project examine Amen
40:41
ok is a project examining the work of women in history. International International thought and thought. And I suppose there's two things I want to say about what of my site I want to say about what of my psyche troubling in your preemption. of the of the feminist critique the feminist critique. Paul Paul. the first The first thing is that you do. confirm complete fair complete feminist with women complete feminist with women effectively denying. women thinkers have done
41:02
women thinkers have done first order women thinkers have done first all the work. Even though your own stuff. uction uctory comments and elsewhere uctory comments and elsewhere in the text, people like Luxembourg and the text, people like Luxembourg and Aren't both do get mentioned as first order thinkers as first order thinkers in. nstant
41:21
But maybe for me the site But maybe for me the slightly more important thing is more important thing is that this is a book for two. teaching. And I think the construction I think the construction of knowledge. is now is not just about a particular care care not just about a particular content. a particular a particular set of paradise a particular set of paradigmatic positions within positions within international political thor which you can use political thor which you can
41:43
use these things to convey to see use these things to convey to students different ways. of thing thinking about. Politics Politics in the international content in the international context. The Production manager is always The Production manager is always also relational process also relational process in which to. achers, and the material achers, and the material that teaching Connect with a particular audience. So to go to an exam to go to an example from my own. teaching practice.
42:06
e. If you explain the e. If you explain the significance of e. If you explain the significance of Record native relationships relationships and recognition. n for human freedom n for human freedom to add n for human freedom to a diverse audience of students. using Hazel using Hazel you using Hazel. Than if you try to do this Than if you try to do the same thing using beauvoir or. do boys. So I think there's something more So I think there's something more going on in the console
42:32
more going on in the construction of knowledge and the use of cameras. annons that annons, that perhaps you are annons, that perhaps you are slightly invading in the way in which you prefer which you preempt or attempt to preempt the fair preempt the feminist critique. at the at the beginning because I think me at the beginning because I think meaning is at the end is at the end of the day, constructed through relationships constructed through relationships in teaching and.
42:53
d the text that you use in the d the text that you use and the thing is that you use case thing is that you use can master. thing is that you use can master.
43:02
So I would like to take issue I would like to take issue, I I would like to take issue, I think. the way the way which you the way in which you you attend to us, it will get Ram. nd that critic nd that criticism having safe nd that criticism. Having said that, these are incredibly rich thinkers, they have a lot thinkers, they have a lot to that I would deny that and clear that I would deny that and clearly the way that the book now way that the book may be used as well. and being able
43:21
being able to download separate. being able to download separate. chapters and so on opens up chapters and so on opens up the possibility for pushing those ibility for putting those things into different kinds of dialogue with other things as well so I'm not sure well so I'm not suggesting that the well so I'm not suggesting that as a penta budget. tool It can't be used in. many different ways. But I many different ways. But I think I'll leave my. y comments there, and thank
43:38
y comments there, and thank you for the opportunity of reading the book. be used in many different ways. But I think I'll leave my comments there, and thank you for the opportunity of reading the book. Thanks very much indeed Kimbo Thanks very much indeed Kimberly well thank you for all, all well thank you for all, all of those. contribution contributions that I know that that I know that Tom. poor will have lots of things that he needs to say to. to a response to Elizabeth and
43:56
to a response to Elizabeth and Kimberly but let me just before Kimberly but let me just before e does that say thank you to does that say thank you to all the people who've already put people who've already put in some really. wonder wonderful questions which are wonderful questions which are we're going to get on to it we're going to get on to in just a. a. minute minute but, so I will try minute but, so I will try and ask, Paul to keep his. response response responses to a minimum
44:14
responses to a minimum because I think many of the things that think many of the things that Elizabeth and Kimberly. have raised are also coming raised are also coming up in some of the questions, and some of the questions, and so it'd be. really good to get the audio. ience's involvement ience's involvement. And if you ience's involvement. And if you're out in the audience and you'd like to ask a question, please. please. Just banking one. And it And it can be about anything.
44:35
And it can be about anything. that's that sort of relates to this that sort of relates to the discussion we're having here, please don't feel inhibited about please don't feel inhibited about ask your question. , even though we're in the company of , even though we're in the company of some illustrious political theorist they're all very friendly. friendly friendly people. So Paul, give us people. So Paul. Give us your people. So Paul. Give us your So Paul. Give us your crown. Thank you.
44:52
Thank you. Thank you, Kim and thank you Thank you, Kim and thank you. Liz for for for Liz for for for the provocation. The, all the questions The, all the questions, all the points you raise and their comp points you raise and they're complex and interconnected. are. I wouldn't I wouldn't say they're all things I. m, I'm aware m, I'm aware of because that looks I'm aware of because that looks kind of. f silly but but f silly but but I'm mindful of f silly but but I'm mindful of.
45:17
So let me perhaps start So let me perhaps start with, with Kim's point about with Kim's point about pedagogy. dagogy and yeah. I mean and, yeah, I mean. an it, it's and, yeah, I mean it. I mean, it.
45:43
Right. Is it something that I would want Is it something that I would want to go to the steak over. I'm not I'm not going to. to I'm not going to, to, to say. say. But I, I, I thought these. things thinkers had thinkers had something to say thinkers had something distinctive to say and in many cases. s, I did think of Hulu I did think of who alternatives. would would be. , who dressed the same kind who dressed the same kinds of issues. And of course. given given what you
46:11
given what you've both said that there's a very broad range that there's a very broad range of things going on here. , both in terms , both in terms of the arguments both in terms of the arguments about.
46:28
the narrative arc the narrative arc of the book narrative arc of the book is. is. I sort of had to. I sort of had to stay. where I am.
46:44
The only thing I'd say. ay in in sort in in sort of self defense.
46:59
Does he listen to different Does he listen to different Does he listen to different response from different audiences. Some of this has been field of this has been field trials. in terms of. you know you know, I mean you know, I mean, the you know, I mean, the book of merge down. ut of a course that I taught of a course that I talked for quite a long time. e, it to a very mixed e, it to a very mixed and very international audience. international audience.
47:29
sort of pedagogy sort of pedagogy responses. Okay Okay Okay. Now sometimes. The Now sometimes the obvious response sometimes the obvious response. with some of the things chose with some of the things was chosen is going to be the challenge. All right. you know
47:55
know, and often it's things that people don't see, in terms of what's being included and what's not i mean i i always like to you know to present my, my sort of a gustin stuff. in a way that. as a sort of statuesque. minutes minute essentially white minute essentially white male, and he's an African. isn't isn't is an African who actually saw is an African who actually saw himself as an African. You know he writes about you You know he writes about, you know, an African writing for
48:18
other africans in Africa. Now of course, that of course, that raises another. issue about about, you know about, you know, what's the size of politics and so on. Because of politics and so on, because of course he's also part, very much part of the Roman Empire, but much part of the Roman Empire.
48:36
which was different. which was different.
48:56
who's in and who's out. If you if you read. d the preface, you'll all d the preface, you'll also know that this was part of the 23rd that this was part of the 27th chapter book and. . And, you know, if I had I . And, you know, if I had I had I . And, you know, if I had I had I waited till the whole thing is done or. country continue to it and, you know, you. it. Whatever you'd have had 1000 pages, you would have had a pages, you would have had a sort of different Cannon partner
49:18
sort of different Cannon, partly you sort of different Cannon, partly, you'd have had. the the. , the other side of the that. you know you know I've just sort of you know I've just sort of explain you know I've just sort of explained in terms of the anti Cosmopolitan for you Cosmopolitan for you.
49:40
know the realism know the realism cosmopolitanism know, the realism cosmopolitanism you the realism cosmopolitanism. You know dichotomy as being You know dichotomy as being in the end, something that needs the end, something that needs to be transcended with it to be transcended with a kind of political prudence. e and, and
50:06
that. that. Where the need to abandon. n the ethical, the need to n the ethical, the need to abandon the ethical is precisely that IDea of the precisely that IDea of the sort of legacy. cy of what if you cy of what if you think of the way Charles Mills describes you way Charles Mills describes you know way Charles Mills describes you know liberal politics, it's like a cat. It's that Idea of It's that Idea of you know freestanding individuals. in some. sense sense realistic
50:29
sense, realistic or or sense, realistic or or orange. d Phyllis philosophical read relating to. each other in ach other in a way that then con ach other in a way that then constitutes political and state power, and that is ultimately power, and that is ultimately are just ridiculous. dical ethical creation ethical creation. So, there is So, there is. is an issue there about is an issue there about me an issue there about morality. What What we mean by it. What, what its place
50:56
What, what its place will be. be in thinking be in thinking about Politics given be in thinking about Politics, given that what I'm not doing. ng is just providing ng is just providing sort of conceptual clarifications conceptual clarifications, and a history of. If you like political speech. If you like political speech. If you like political speech. It's to the server It's to the surface of It's to the surface of doing. political political theory chat political theory challenging and open
51:17
political theory challenging and opening up and partly also explore opening up and partly also exploring what those alternative visions really are and alternative visions really are and how they're. there they're presented to us. they're presented to us. So that's. t's an important part of an important part of the story. And it links to this. question question about you question about, you know, what question about, you know, what is the political and the side
51:38
of the political will is started. which is which is a very important point where, where do I say that where, where do I say that, and how where, where do I say that, and how do I link this the. e the individual chapters, this e the individual chapters e the individual chapters clearly enough to show that there is, there is a there is there is actually. you know you know, if you know, if not, if not a con you know, if not, if not a conversation at least they're all. you know
51:57
you know clearly doing the know clearly doing the thing I say that. re doing re doing and doing and. And the side of the political thing think is what's important to me think is was important to me because I mean if we started the because I mean if we start at the end. with Smith with Schmidt it's very it's with Schmidt it's very it's very common for students as common for students, as well as common for students, as well as for, you know, academic colleagues. es to throw out this is
52:17
es to throw out this idea of the you know the the you know the the easy talk about what the domain of talk about what the domain of the political is ok as if that's sort of self explanatory. And then you then, you know, to fall back. k on. Well k on. Well ck on. Well you know the domain of the political is the sort of of the political is the sort of friend enemy confrontation. Okay. And, you know, I'm in print out And, you know I'm in print elsewhere, and this was picked up by my.
52:39
sort of late great. colleague colleague and friend, the new colleague and friend Glenn knew he was criticizing Schmidt. t for kind of for kind of arbitrarily. ly identifying that identifying that. And I don't think it's as arbitrary I don't think it's as arbitrary as. he suggests, but he suggests, but it also raise he suggests, but it also raises questions. which are which are not now are not not well. defined defended in his own way in his own work about. t how different bits fit
53:04
t how different bits fit together so the domain of the together so the domain of the political and this sort of exists. ntial confrontation, and the confrontation, and the character of that and how that and how that's supposed to. link to institutions link to institutions particularly to link to institutions particularly juridical institutions right because. e you know Schmidt is e you know Schmidt is ultimate you know Schmidt is ultimately. a. lawyer. Right. And he approaches
53:30
And he approaches to study And he approaches. The study of Politics through this. . The, the well . The, the well . The, the, well, what he sees us . The, the, well, what he sees us the sort of unstated politics. cs in juridical in juridical arguments and. and legal discourse. Okay, so he's Okay, so he's constantly drawer. awing our attention to some awing our attention to something that's behind that is that's behind that. In the state of the exception and the the state of the exception and
53:54
the power of the sovereign. ign to decide and soul ign to decide and soul, and then to decide and soul. And there's this other thing. g. So what is that Other thing g. So what is that Other thing where does that. And of course, a lot of And of course, a lot of the thinkers, that are dealt with thinkers, that are dealt with earlier.
54:16
In this sort of iconic In this sort of iconic. c controversial late c controversial late c controversial late think so it's c controversial late think so it's not a book about the sources. Schmidt, but it is sources. Schmidt, but it is drawing out those it. ideas so you ideas so you know a Gustin or ideas so you know a Gustin on history redemption. and temporality. Machiavelli to. on the the place of violence. Klaus of it. its is no real it is really one of the most important sources there
54:43
important sources there important sources there a closet important sources their class of its. you know you know, I think, is it is , You know, I think, is it is important piece important. In, he addresses almost by not addressing but he does so addressing but he does sort of time addressing but he does sort of kind of directly address those who kind of directly address those who want to see. e, you know, history with you know, history with a purpose and direction. the place
55:03
the place of war. is being as being some sort of QA pose and direction, the place of war as being some sort of condition and tool for moving on to moving on to some, it's this. abandon abandonment of tV abandonment of tV of theology. of theology. The End of History and The End of History. And it's the abandoned it's the abandonment of the IDea. that you that, you know, history that, you know, history is anything other than. anything other than. n the succession of event
55:23
n the succession of events, the sort of secular. r history that a Gustin r history that a Gustin leaves us with where there is this link us with where there is this linear one, almost one. e damn thing after another e damn thing after another, more damn thing after another model. anything at the end of it. It's, it doesn't have It's, it doesn't have an It's, it doesn't have a narrative, and it doesn't even have a. direct There's, there isn't probably There's, there isn't progress.
55:51
There's, there isn't progress. Or there isn't Progress in this Or there isn't Progress in the sense of Progress towards sense of Progress towards something else. there's there's progress in progress in the way that. kind of high EQ and kind of high EQ and an oak sharp thought of us. just being change just being change. And it's changed that is it's changed that is the problem.
56:20
I'm probably on that sort of I'm probably on that sort of pessimistic Augustinian ism. But I don't think that means. that political theory collapse that political theory collapses and you can't make normative and so so on. It makes it harder. And it makes it harder to. suffer sustain IDeas that IDeas that you know the. e violence is just e violence is just categorically out of consideration, but out of consideration, but it, it's out of consideration, but it, it's the terrain on which effect
56:44
it's the terrain on which effective political. arguments need to be made need to be made. Thanks very much for that's great very much for that's great. I feel we should move to the I feel we should move to the I feel we should move to the questions that because we've got a galaxy. of various a very interesting questions and a very interesting questions and I'm a very interesting questions and I'm going to put into all three of you so if anybody wants to of you so if anybody wants to
57:02
of you so if anybody wants to chip in. chip in. these These are all actually really good questions that I don't know what the answer to it. the first one of course is the first one of course is essentially Write a book about 10 essentially Write a book about 10 or 11 people. some says well I didn't you talk about turns. But vj is trial But vj is trial says isn't vj is trial says isn't your choice rather. Your centric. c. And why didn't you include And why didn't you include some.
57:27
e zoo, or even e zoo, or even Calvin China e zoo, or even Calvin Chinese e zoo, or even Calvin Chinese e zoo or urban Calvin Chinese Islamic purple for China Islamic purple for China kinda. , maybe. Yeah maybe. Yeah. yeah. You mentioned that Sunday You mentioned that Send the customer is an african. theorists theorist, and that now and that now of course. in China in China yes but Tom in China yes but Tom woods China yes but some.
57:56
of reading of reading of reading randall college of reading randall collins massive book on the sociology of. philosophy is where he, you know philosophy is where he you know he was often. n and and tells you how n and and tells you huge news s often and and tells you huge news stories about Chinese metaphysics and so metaphysics and so, which I had not metaphysics and so, which I had not one clue. tensions and some of the old tensions and some of the alternatives will be relatively
58:20
similar what do you think. anybody anybody anybody pork can hat do you think anybody pork. Can I can I just say, let me just take. that head on. I think there's a simple answer I think there's a simple answer. which won't be the satisfactory. answer answer but answer, but it is an answer which one but it is an answer, which I think is important. When you When you try and look at this When you try and look at this idea of expanding or D idea of expanding or D colonizing idea of expanding or D
58:41
colonizing or globalizing. the correct the curriculum and curriculum. And I'm going to say this. you know you know because I kind of know this this you know because I kind of know this from you know I have a son who's a professor. of Chinese literature. If you're going to introduce If you're going to introduce. If you're going to introduce. profile profound and important profound and important thing is someone other culture, you kind someone other culture, you kind
58:59
of have to be able to read the material. It's, it's too easy It's, it's too easy, and It's, it's too easy. And I think I know why we do it And I think I know why we do it but it's too easy for us and particularly, you know, middle aged particularly, you know, middle aged white men like me to think that aged white men like me to think that I can, you know, expand the that I can, you know, expand the store.
59:23
I don't speak Arabic I I don't speak Arabic, I really do don't speak Arabic. I really Mandarin. Mandarin. And, and so on. So then you're really So then you're relying on other then you're relying on other authorities to. tell you these are the right thing tell you these are the right things. And it's kind of interesting that if you think of the history. ry of the ry of the profession of political ry of the profession of political ry of the profession of political theory.
59:47
Greek political thought. Bye bye by political theorist is one by political theorist is one thing in class assistance do something different. because because the classes cysts or not because the classes sister not bothered. What you know people who don't really understand the entire group Cannon entire group Can and think about. the facilities or the facilities or plato in the way that you know in the way that you know. follow , philosophers have been trying , philosophers who have been
1:00:06
, philosophers who have been trained in PpA you know enough about. the key translations the key translations to say the key translations to say something philosophical do something philosophical do something philosophical do so. o this o this caution there o this caution there, and a certain sense of humility in the certain sense of humility in the face of that challenge. at us a secondary. level level of. I wouldn't want to talk about this at any great length today
1:00:25
but I do think, you know that but I do think, you know, the but I do think, you know, the question it does bring up. some important thing is that some important thing is that could indeed be in could indeed be in this story could indeed be in this story, but could indeed be in this story, but I just think that me doing that but I just think that me doing And in the end all books in the end all books are written by an author. and the author has to. take responsibility for that
1:00:44
take responsibility for that me during that would have been. Well I think on satisfactory actually Well I think on satisfactory actually. You do mention them. lation lation to now that the the inter lation to now that the the interrelationship between his thinking and. d his moral d his borrowing from Eurocentric his borrowing from Eurocentric forward, and his. familiar familiarity with Grounding familiarity with Grounding in Chinese Chinese. Yeah traditional. Yeah traditional.
1:01:07
Well, yes I do, I do Well, yes I do, I do but I'm very careful what I use very careful what I use somehow. mouth is also. so interesting in that he is so interesting in that he is an international revolution radio international revolution rate international revolution rate. So although you know although, you know, there's another. r world, in well r world in which, you know world in which you know what mounted. thought thought road, and the rest thought road, and the relevant
1:01:27
texts takes you in a direction texts takes you in a direction texts takes you in a direction that's very domestic and his that's very domestic and his poetry I which. I know bye. thers people telling me. is great. I steer away from that. t and the bits that t and the bits that I've focused on the bits where he's engaged on the bits where he's engaging with the transformation of Lenin ism. m, so he's really, he's m, so he's really, he's looking at a western. problem problem cannon
1:01:50
problem cannon theory for cannon theory from his own. National perspective and National perspective and I'm looking at that and the same when he's thinking about war. Okay, obviously there's the practice of war in. n the, in the ward n the, in the war against the quote n the, in the war against the Kuomintang and there's also the road road Kuomintang and there's also the role in the. opposite opposition to the job opposition to the japanese but he opposition to the japanese but
1:02:10
he's also thinking about this. is in the context of is in the context of class of its in the context of class of its class of its would have been no. known, pretty much known, pretty much by all sort of known, pretty much by all sort of, well prepared Marx's of, well prepared Marxist leninist because angles and Lennon leninist because angles and Lenin thought class of its was Lenin thought class of its was an important. read so in a way read so in a way I could have a
1:02:27
get out of jail free card there get out of jail free card there , because there , because they're doing the , because they're doing the because they're doing the Western Western thing. If he was writing he was writing, and he does in. some places in the way some places in the way that separates us out there separates us out. Then he removes he's Then he removes he's removed from that debate from that debate but maybe the others want to say something. Yeah, I don't think five. got here
1:02:49
got huge amount chat, add to that huge amount chat, add to that. I think I think that one I've been in. Sorry think that one I've been in. Sorry, I just want. that, um, I think that one I've been in. Sorry, I just want to endorse Paul's Portion of endorse Paul's Portion about. our. our compromising scholar compromising scholarly standard scholarly standards. ds in order to try ds in order to try in order to try it you know in all. r to try r to try to expand r to try to expand the rest
1:03:11
r to try to expand the what we actually need. though though, I do think that though, I do think that perhaps there is a downside to this there is a downside to the sort of named individuals. ls as chapter headings for ls as chapter headings format here notwithstanding all the reasons why one all the reasons why one doesn't do that for readability. . But what we do But what we do it. it grips with. questions. and problems. and the and be open to and be open to people from
1:03:39
be open to people from different. backgrounds backgrounds, with different site backgrounds, with different site backgrounds, with different citations and references saying , Oh well, no, that's not right Oh well, no, that's not really a problem. you to protect from this point. of view of view, or yes no well of view, or yes no well that was also of view, or yes no well that was also a problem for them also a problem for this group of things. nkers or was a problem
1:03:56
nkers or was a problem that time and nkers or was a problem that time and so I think it's that sort of openness to die. dialogue, that is the dialogue, that is the most important thing going forward. as well As we try to. widen the widen the reference and widen the reference and and Do widen the reference and and D color nose. ize Dm period is the correct Dm period is the curriculum which i'm very. painful painful. Yeah, I mean painful. Yeah, I mean, but just painful. Yeah, I mean, but just
1:04:19
just one additional point to make them in. make them in. n the western folks n the western focus day the western focus did rather in. poses I mean, but just just one additional point to make them in the western focus did rather impose itself on many many. other other part other parts of the world in which other parts of the world in which it. sucks such that they have a kind of such that they have a kind of such that they have a kind of ownership as well. Have some of these debates.
1:04:36
s and I think that's it s and I think that's it s and I think that's, you know I mean I've talked about his stuff in China. and in and Japan and so on Japan and so on. Japan and so on. And they're interested in that. not not not not just to sort of flat not not just to sort of flat for me but because of course they are actually interested in. are actually interested in. in in the way in which the West in in the way in which the Western canon has been used, and in Western canon has been used,
1:04:53
and in some cases directly used to sort of theorize the kind to sort of theorize the kind of states they ought to adopt in the. early to adopt in the early. you know in the mid late night you know, in the mid late 19th century early 20th century, the Jeff century early 20th century, the Japanese actually went out to Japanese actually went out to look around Europe look around Europe and the United look around Europe and the United States to fly. find the constitution
1:05:09
find the constitutional theory that they would take home. , and attached to their Pro , and attached to their Process , and attached to their Process of modernization, lady of modernization. parlor parlor They didn't take the British They didn't take the British parliament they didn't take the United States constitution they took United States constitution they took, you know, the German outcomes. itute itute the price itute the pressure of Public Administration I remember going
1:05:25
through the library. to toe and one to toe and one visit and they had a friend had French German. and then and then match in China and then match in China too. German German. And then, In China to Kimberly Did you have any thoughts on that. I don't think I have anything else to add on that theme. Thank you else to add on that theme. Thank you. Um, there was Um, there was also a question Um, there was also a question about the. f men and women in international f men and women in international
1:05:54
relations and so Lydia. Adam says Adam says men have had a few thousand years of deciding about everything on wor. And I'm just one woman and And I'm just one woman and I'm hardly sick of it, highly complementary. lighting light shines on time for light shines on time for men to step aside and give women and go etc. ttings peacefully peacefully. If they did, would it make it they did wouldn't make any difference. What do you think. What do you think is there. any other any other elements
1:06:20
other element in the, in the. in the in the, the in the, the obsession in the, the obsession with in the, the obsession with violence. and Sophie and so forth. I can ship it out I can ship it out. about that one that one. Yes. Yeah, I mean Yes. Yeah, I mean, it's Yes. Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a Yes. Yeah, I mean, it's a it's Yes. Yeah, I mean, it's a it's an interesting question to raise there's obviously a point of view.
1:06:48
positioned to take. women Women haven't do support. Warren and violence. etc so. . So, I think it's certainly the . So, I think it's certainly the case that you can build on. strength strands of feminist ethic of feminist ethics and Pull it. itics for peace me itics for peacemaking purposes
1:07:12
I don't think it's I don't think it's I don't think it says straightforward don't think it says straightforward. rd as if you give them rd as if you give the women ago, things will be settled. ettled Yeah, it's, it's more complex. than that that. Okay, really, I think. I think i think you know there's there's here's this s there's, there's a lot of interesting sort of material. it isn't that isn't quite covered here but we've mentioned aren't and but we've mentioned aren't and, you know.
1:07:40
, Kim is quite right i mentioned , Kim is quite right i mentioned you know Rosa luxemburg in the end you know Rosa luxemburg in the spirit the by the way in the discussion on by the way in the discussion, obviously women. n not obvious that they n not obvious that they are you know n not obvious that they are you u know, kind of. If you think of their sort of anti war, and so their sort of anti war and soft you know they have very, very. clear clear views about the release
1:07:56
views about the relationship between. you know you know you know violence and Paul know violence and Politics and so on. But I think. aren't aren't would well aren't would. Well, yeah, I mean aren't would. Well, yeah, I mean . Aren't these aren't she would just say that I'm sorry that's just just say that I'm sorry that's just. that's just that's just the way it is not that's that's just the way it is not that's not me speaking as a that's not me speaking as a woman who are writing as a
1:08:12
woman are experiencing power so. a woman woman either. Yeah, I think, I think the fact that I think i think the fact that. at male violence has male violence has dominated. overall overall and overlay overall, and over long periods of time. does
1:08:37
a bit of a breathing space a bit of a breathing space and a bit of a breathing space and what a very welcome. all of you Thought you can't extract. late from that into late from that into couldn't pass from that into couldn't pass it this. future future. Yeah. How future. Yeah. How do you do that anyway I mean that's also anyway I mean that's also the fundamental. challenge you can't extrapolate from that future. Yeah. How do you do that anyway I mean that's also the
1:08:57
fundamental challenge yeah well I'm looking now at the questions that have been most. budget. e audience e audience and got one audience and got one from Anastasia. step let's from Anastasia stead let server. from Anastasia stead let server. And she's asking particularly about the political theory of time about the political theory of thomas Hobbes and the. Although he's an absolute is here Although he's an absolute is he stresses the interrelationship between. the the. sovereign and the me
1:09:15
sovereign and the meeting the needs of our early serving the needs needs of our early serving the needs of it. , of the pop populace and populace and. and, and points out. ut the hub the hubs ideas without. paying sufficient attention. to that to that to that, you know, you're to that, you know, you're not going to survive long as a song to survive long as a software. So she wants to know. So she wants to know. should we should we should we all should we should we all
1:09:35
should we should we always think of should we should we always think of the suffering. ng as self limiting in that as self limiting in that, in that way. Paul well Paul. Well I mean obviously there's Well I mean obviously there's. 's two things 's two things two things. Yeah Well, I mean, obviously, there's two things. Yeah, there's there's two things going on here which. I can I cover perhaps didn't bring cover perhaps didn't bring out fully. I mean obviously the count of
1:09:57
sovereignty is an account of sovereignty is an account of the nature of. software sovereignty and what sort of thing sovereignty and what sort of thing is it it's a rhetorical construction that's made up of right construction that's made up of rights consolidated. that then that then gives you something diff that then gives you something different. So sovereignty is on So sovereignty is unlimited has no sovereignty is unlimited has no. You know, there's no formal console
1:10:14
You know, there's no formal constraints on what it can require. and so on so on. But hubs also has But hubs also has running alongside that a different story alongside that a different story about political prudence and t story about political prudence and he keeps those things and he keeps those things conceptually. distinct distinct. I think that's distinct. I think that's, that's an important point. And of course political prudence And of course political prudence
1:10:32
is you know even if you have all the powers in the world how you use them still requires a bit. it of thought. Because it of thought. Because what are you trying to do and what are the consequences of exercising your the consequences of exercising your power in some certain ways. ways, but by keeping those two by keeping those two things different. distinct. he was He wants to ensure that He wants to ensure that the sky He wants to ensure that the scope and limit of this power this
1:10:52
scope and limit of this power this thing called the state. doesn't get confirmed. d with the instrument d with the instrumental d with the instrumental dimension of d with the instrumental dimension of prudential dimension of prudential thinking, so that you could say well you know this case is this case is, is gone below this case is, is gone beyond the pale, this is, you know pale, this is, you know, sovereigns. s can destroy s can destroy Sovereign state s can destroy Sovereign states
1:11:12
but there's no issue of right or but there's no issue of right or. or but there's no issue of right or, or irrationality. about that. And that's, I think the important that's, I think the important point. And then on the other hand then on the other hand, you've got other things. got other things. ecause you think ecause she thinks that there's only prudence. Ralph rather than right. and then And then the question is who's And then the question is who's prudence an individual. possibly
1:11:35
possibly Machiavellian the prince Machiavellian the prints group.
1:11:45
Internally, state externally Internally, state externally. you know you know You know, the residual right to You know, the residual right to exercise the. exact executive power of the lord power the lower nature to be violent. to people to people to people punish them and so on people punish them and so on. So yeah So yeah.
1:12:16
Did you look, same thing. that you accepting Kimberly. that you accepting Kimberly. that you accepting Kimberly just briefly on that and when just briefly on that and when I was rereading hopes further. was rereading hopes further. business business person I am putting I am putting a couple of years ago. One thing One thing that really struck me is that he's one of the few black is that he's one of the few political thing because you really do. ally doesn't ally doesn't in any sense kind of
1:12:34
ally doesn't in any sense kind of elevator glorified violence, so make it in a row violence, so make it heroic in any kind of way. And that sort of of any kind of way. And that's one of the reasons why. hunting such hunting such an interesting thing you really, you said. How to know had an understanding of what fear an understanding of what fear and pain. and pain. actually actually meant. make it heroic in any kind of way. And that's one of the reasons why it was such an
1:12:50
interesting thing he really, you interesting thing he really, you said had an understanding of what fear and pain, actually meant. Yeah, yeah, he's not you Yeah, yeah, he's not unique in the list for that but you're. right right he's, he right he's, he doesn't he doesn't celebrate it at all. Timorous is Timorous is. Yeah Timorous is. Yeah. Okay, moving on to. Okay, moving on to another. upgrade upgraded question comes from upgraded question comes from steve Ballmer that's about. about
1:13:15
And then the And then the question is really about the the you know the about the the you know the the argument. that campaign that. t you know there's only one planet t you know there's only one planet that can sustain life and the whole universe of files. we know we know, and so we know, and so the overriding goal we know, and so the overriding goal of politics has got to be. goal of politics has got to be. ending War.
1:13:44
you know. advocate you know, advocate. g, sort of g sort of dead planet stress g sort of dead planet strategies g sort of dead planet strategies which they said to me, hell bent on which they said to me, hell bent on doing right across the USA and. USA and. so on so on. And that at least it gives us that at least it gives us a kind of an. of a sort of into history of a sort of into history kind a rationale for. things thinking about what we're doing about what we're doing.
1:14:04
about what we're doing.
1:14:18
you want to anybody, any of the three of you really want to comment on on that question. Some ways I think it's quite hard ways I think it's quite hard question to. respond to without respond to without a bit more respond to without a bit more sense of the precise context sense of the precise context of that comment the county in. comment that's there. But one of the things about. But one of the things about One of the things about about count is that he about count is that he had that
1:14:39
very very strong sense that very very strong sense that. that, even though we could know we even though we could know we have to act as if they're have to act as if there could be all have to act as if there could be order piece. , a way of doing things, so a way of doing things, and I think, you know. that would be something that that would be something that. that that he would see as a country that he would see as a continuous kind of obligation that we have so it's not just about.
1:15:04
t the kind of last moment t the kind of last moment. As I think t the kind of last moment. As I t the kind of last moment. As I think the question appears to imply that maybe I hadn't fully and imply that maybe I hadn't fully understood what the question. is getting out. there the there. mean if it's a more general question. about about well, you know about well, you know we're all going to hell in a handbasket then it's probably will. You know, I think. with without to be. ugustine
1:15:25
Augustine pessimists myself Augustine pessimists myself. That's probably true. Yeah, so I Yeah, so I do think this is a. really interesting question from really interesting question from Steve Steve. a lot our Lord and a lot, and I mean I. don't don't think it don't think it's fair to think think it's fair to think that. t you're all university t you're all university professors on Earth, including professor. all university professors on Earth, including professor, Kelly are as it were.
1:15:57
And, in fact, I mean there's that in fact, I mean there's, you know there's a real. dose of kinds of. pull doesn't say much about pull doesn't say much about this in his in his. mouth methodological remark methodological remarks, but there's a real dose of sort of critical. critique critique here critique here in this book here in this book as well as in. can work. which is an issue. n inquiry into the priests into the presuppositions into the presuppositions that we
1:16:21
into the presuppositions that we have to, as it were, endorsing. nd take d take for granted. We're too take for granted, were to understand what's. going going on. So going on. So it's not it's not as it going on. So it's not it's not as it were, endorsing what's going on it. on. It's asking, you know It's asking, you know, why is asking, you know, why is, what is. going going on going going on. Going on how can going on. Going on how can it be that going on. Going on how can it be
1:16:40
that this is the real that this is the real common sensical well. , that way , that we're living in now that we're living in now can. in.
1:16:58
of perpetual piece pace piece, how we could underneath piece, how we could understand judgments of truth of view judgments of truth and beauty and so. so on. And he so on. And he also did on. And he also did. thing think optimistically think optimistically that think optimistically that there is optimistically that there is a possible. e world in which e world in which we reach a kind world in which we reach a kind of. of a kind of Aquila of a kind of A clip. real 20th century and
1:17:23
20th century and 21st century thing century and 21st century thinkers do find. nd it much, much harder to nd it much, much harder to endorse that It is not the ID endorse that It is not the IDea of a possible world but. certainly certainly the idea of certainly the idea of a profitable world. But one of the things that, you know know But one of the things that, you But one of the things that, you know, university professors are know, university professors are trying to do is understand why
1:17:40
trying to do is understand why it is. such things are as such things are as they are low such things are as they are lamentable. though Though the way they are might be Though the way they are might be so i think i'd want to push back so i think i'd want to push back. though Steve though Steve though, Steve Perry Steve.
1:18:02
Both this one quick one. Both this one quick one What can I say. What can I say. can't is in the people who like can't like. Okay, um, let's move on Okay, um, let's move on to just a couple of more sort of. Let's take it down to day day take it down towards everyday life a bit. So one question that So one question that comes from Michael wise and Phil Michael wise and Phil Michael wise and filmic fail, really Michael wise and filmic fail, , really in different forms is about
1:18:31
really in different forms is really in different forms is about the way. y my life has shifted towards a sort of information. based. server civilization does that does that change. Political. l content at all does it l content at all. Does it change what l content at all. Does it change what you know interstate violence me what you know interstate violence me this is all about. you know. some , some other state with me some other state with misinformation. n of them, actually
1:18:53
of them actually physically. crossing crossing borders and Talk crossing borders and Taught these these sorts of issues, how do you think the digital side digital civilization or civilization or era that we're. pushing pushing deeply into now pushing deeply into now is going to pushing deeply into now is going o now is going to change these issues. Any. He's on that. I mean what what. I mean what what. So one one possible for So one one possible for So one one possible framework to
1:19:15
think about that is too think about that is to is to think. about about about classes at Cisco about class of its conception of war about class of its conception of war, and the. inner logic of war. ar us one of escalation ar us one of escalation now us one of escalation. Now, you know, what Now, you know, what does class of its think about aI and the of its think about aI and the, of. input input doesn't think doesn't think about that.
1:19:42
on large group. today to large group violence to large group violence by some time to large group violence by some technological fix. I mean that's technological fix. I mean that's been the reception. on of, you know, class of, you know, class of its is work. k through k through our, you know, our Yeah k through our, you know, our Yeah but you know the first world War came along and then world War came along and then
1:20:01
you know, so that's little heart you know, so that's little heart and then you've got, you know, after and then you've got, you know, after. er the atom bomb the atom bomb and so on, you know. w, escalations no longer possible w escalations no longer possible e because you know the the the abs e because you know the the the absolute is already already absolute is already already there in front of you. there in front of you. I think we've managed to catch I think we've managed to carry
1:20:18
on quite a lot of pretty high level and Vicious. conflict with conflict with pretty much every technological change we've made technological change we've made and I, I would be. I don't I don't want to be dismissive. but I but I think that the ID but I think that the IDea that somehow AI, and you somehow AI, and you know cyber warS somehow AI, and you know cyber warfare is going to change things. gs massively know gs massively know it just presents massively know it just presents
1:20:39
a different challenge. to the to your opponent and one insights of of cloud insights of of class of its and one. of the things that is in the things that is important to this idea of political Pro this idea of political Prudence is whatever you think you're is whatever you think your interest is. s conference somebody who s conference somebody who has a different interest, and opponent different interest, and opponent who acts accordingly and opponent who acts accordingly.
1:20:57
And that's true whether we're that's true whether we're talking about. t, you know, the technology Isaiah t, you know, the technology Ization of war or we're back in , you know, the 18th century you know, the 18th century with armies and. Colorful uniforms. Colorful uniforms. But if I blow up your new But if I blow up your nuclear power plant by sabotaging power plant by sabotaging software. Maybe I've evaded response Maybe I've evaded responsibility and maybe I can you know. , a voice
1:21:18
avoid. being being held responsible so being held responsible so maybe we get the violence still but we get the violence still but but it's it's it's. a nice a nice high, it's more know a nice high, it's more know make a nice high, it's more know make and nobody can read and nobody can really sort of track it down. given given my point of any we can predict that. as a possibility.
1:21:45
And we've also got, you know. w, 24 seven drone 24 seven drones out there. easily easily targeting bit. aken off nology always Requires nology always Requires you to be in the place. I always in the place. I always liked the idea you know that the cloud. ud is kind of our the cloud ud is kind of out of the clouds, know the cloud is a place where know the cloud is a place where there are super. super linked and they, you know. , you need a tech , you need a technological and
1:22:05
, you need a technological and territorially situated place to territorially situated place to have things like. the cloud the cloud, you know cloud. cloud. You know, that's what you You know, that's what, you know, if know, that's what, you know, if we believe the. store stories about China and stories about China and Huawei if we stories about China and Huawei if we believe you know the NSA owning all of all of owning all of all of them really controlling all of us
1:22:22
really controlling all of us tech industry that. hat's that's what states do s that's what states do at the moment that's what states do at the moment. They look at that and. d the threat and how the counter the threat and how the counter. ounter thoughts Kimberly or. Elizabeth Elizabeth so Elizabeth thoughts Kimberly or Elizabeth. So, I mean, I do think So, I mean I do think, Patrick I mean, i do think, Patrick, that if you. were to manipulate were to manipulate the algorithm so
1:22:41
algorithm so were to manipulate the algorithm so that they have our plot algorithm so that they have our plan that, I mean. it doesn't say it doesn't seem to me that there is it doesn't seem to me that there is difficulty pinning responsibility. for that. course it might be hard to track you down. And you may be well protect And you may be well protected, so the And you may be well protected, so the, you can evade. e justice, I don't e justice. I don't think you can
1:23:03
evade responsibility and I do evade responsibility and I don't think that the new II don't think that the new a I mean I think that you know some of the country. concern f concerns about artifice concerns about artificial intelligence is that it's taking human agency, out of the agency, out of the picture there agency, out of the picture there out of the picture and therefore response. you know you know, there is where you're going to enter ing to enter a world ing to enter a world of new air
1:23:22
to enter a world of new irresponsibility. , but I think we , but I don't think we have to concede that and I haven't concede that and I haven't actually seen any. y developments that Lucas y developments that Lucas y developments that Look as though we should come see though we should concede that point. me anytime.
1:23:51
One of the things that's come up in a few of the questions. ns is about different types of buyers ns is about different types of violence and how we think about. I think in I think in in Paul's book I think in in Paul's book it tends to be. seen in a fairly classical seen in a fairly classical sense involving, you know kinetic. viral violence between, you know between, you know, which is inflicted wounds, etc is inflicted wounds etc on on people and destroy. oying places
1:24:10
oying places, but clearly oying places, but clearly this raises oying places, but clearly this oying places, but clearly this raises the question about how balance can take different food. balance can take different food. forms and And at what point, the word violence And at what point, the word violence becomes an appropriate so it's one of those things Listen, I've struggled with. th your answer th is the answer to it but I think it's interesting that you use
1:24:28
think it's interesting that you think it's interesting that you use the term psychological. virus violence in the question in the question. Right. Okay. One final sort Okay. One final sort of let's bring it down to real life. characters kind of question is break kind of question is brexit, you Tony kind of question is brexit utopian list, or is it. is it cosmopolitan. or. school what what what what should what what what what should we bout it it. Who wants to go first. I'll show
1:24:52
wants to go first or should I say. you should you should. say. Yeah, I think the last word Yeah, I think. I think it's an absolutely brilliant i think. I think it's an absolutely brilliant question. absolutely brilliant question. And it's one that all students it's one that all students should write an essay. So there's an interesting story. you know you know, the two you know, the two most. impact important anything Quentin's important anything, Quentin skinner would allow me to say
1:25:14
this, the two most. Sydney Significant British Significant British Scholars have hobbs, Richard have hobbs Richard talk and no now Malcolm up now Malcolm up Malcolm both strong. at work at work both strong advocate at work both strong advocates of breaks in tax case it was tux case it was a kind of legs it. it in, Malcolm it in Malcolm's case, it it in Malcolm's case, it's partly or in Malcolm's case, it's partly a of the year. opean ization of ization of conservative. ve ism as a kind of
1:25:38
ve ism as a kind of import ve ism as a kind of importation of Christian Social democracy. , kind of, you know, consolidate kind of, you know Catholicism all over again. So. those So those two people. So those two people. And therefore, homes. problem
1:26:16
divided and shared. d. So Hobbs d. So Hobbs. If you go to So Hobbs. If you go to some of the others. you know you know, cosmopolitans of you know, cosmopolitans of various kinds. well, you know. well, you know. they think the whole world. ld is a single ld is a single state, if you like ld is a single state, if you like.
1:26:44
But it's limited amongst.
1:27:02
Right, well look thanks very y much indeed Paul and Kimberly y much indeed Paul and Kimberly and Elizabeth it's been a fun and Elizabeth it's been a fascinating discussion, it's a fair fascinating discussion, it's a fascinating book. thank thank you to the audience for some thank you to the audience for some really brilliant questions. And I hope that all of you will go And I hope that all of you will go and download the book. and ponder and ponder even further out
1:27:21
and ponder even further out on these important issues Thank you very much indeed.
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