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1:51
we go. Thank you very much. Politician Lithuania. I am for my diplomat. Okay. For 23 years. Get a cup of coffee. And last posting in Washington DC. That's where I met all those guys. And now I'm back in. No no no I'm good. No I'm good. She's the one who just landed. I'm good. Representing the ruling Christian Democrat Party always. When did you get in? Kind of foreign policy. Friday. Friday. Soviet Union. Of course. Always were hunting in the east. That would be
2:21
beautiful also. Even up there. As far as Devon. So, when we lived here, we went up there a lot. Estevan. Oh, hi. Did you know what it looks like? in a. I I see. Alright, if I could ask you to take your seats, please.
2:36
Mia, the best. The best. Hypothesis.
2:54
Alright For our last panel of today and thank you all for sticking with us throughout the day. The questions from the audience have been terrific. So, we appreciate it. I have the great fortune of introducing a stellar panel here. Uh to my immediate left is Kara McDonald who is the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and the Bureau for Democracy Human Rights, and Labor, a career diplomat. Cara, thank you so much for making the trip to be with us here today. To her left is Dan
3:30
Twining, long time friend and colleague who is the president of the International Republican Institute and in the interest of full disclosure, I'm on his board Cathy is with the Open Society Georgia Foundation and a long time friend and activist here. We really appreciate your being here too. You didn't have far to come. Next to her is Gigas Pavalones also a long time friend, former ambassador to the United States of Lithuania and now in the Lithuania Parliament and last but not
4:06
least, Joshua Monk who is with Seis, Johns Hopkins, and an expert on these issues. I couldn't ask for a better panel here. So, thank you. Um Kara, let me let me start with you. Um I want to ask, you have responsibility for Europe and Eurasia within the Bureau for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor. You have your hands full. Um you give us a sense of the landscape that you're dealing with. The priorities as you as you look at this region. Thank you. Um thank you, David.
4:39
In my reading, can folks hear me? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Uh first, let me just say a big thank you to the Bush Institute, George W Bush Institute, the McCain Institute, to EPRC, Evelyn, David, Nino. Uh it is an absolute stellar group of brain trust that you've put together here today and tomorrow. Um I'm looking forward to learning as much I hope as I'm able to contribute. So, thank you for allowing me to participate. Um let me first start out by just
5:09
saying you know, the title of our panel is Democra versus Authoritarianism. I'm not sure what you put first. I hope it's democracy. Okay. Democracy versus authoritarianism. And I think the first thing I want to communicate is that President Biden sees this contest between democracy and authoritarianism. As the seminal definitive, determinative, contest of the 21st century. what does that mean? That means he is committed to in this administration, the
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administration I represent has committed to put democracy, democratic principles, and human rights at the heart of foreign policy and I'm often asked, well, what does that mean? So, that I think gets to your question of where our priorities are and where the rubber hits the road but I want to say one thing about this contest because in conversations with many, many states, not just in the western world but globally. Um there is a concern that this is about
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great power competition. This is not about great power competition. This is about those countries and those nations that stand by the UN Charter, the International Order based on democratic values and principles, the treaties that have been stood up to, and those countries that seek to change borders by might, to rule by might, and to rule with impunity. So, we have really sought within this construct of democracy versus authoritarianism. To do a couple of things. One of them
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is to really expand the tent. So, when we talk about what are the western responses to what's happening in this region, what are what can Europe do more of? What can United States do more of? We're also asking ourselves, what do we need to do more of globally? How do we build the global unity around what's happening in this very region? So, I think the president obviously put forward an agenda to hold this summit for Democracy and we can talk about that more if that's of
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interest to folks but there's one piece I want to bring into this discussion from that. In bringing over 100 leaders together, over 50% of whom are not western, are not from this part of the world, are from the global south, represent the G 77. The goal has been to expand the tent around what this contest is. This is not great power competition. This is about the International Order and the future that we all agree to live in. And small and medium-sized states, I will
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tell you, have told us, they have more of a stake in this than the great powers. Because they depend on that system to allow their their borders to be continued to be defined as such. Um we have all seen the Freedom House indicators. We all know the attrition that democracy has been through. So when you ask me in the world that I live in and the and the day-to-day work that we do, what is on our agenda? Our agenda is literally changing those indicators. Um that is a
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daunting task and we can absolutely not do that alone. So, again, we're expanding the tent. Uh 750 commitments were made at that summit. Many of those are domestically oriented. We talked about getting our house, our own houses in order as much as we do abroad but it it again is about building that coalition, that community that says we're going to stand by this. We're going to stand by democracy. Um what I hope to hear today because I want to get out of
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this again as much as I try to put in. Um is how we tip those scales. What experience we have in this room that shows how we tip those scales? We we have three priorities in in my bureau. Specific about tipping those scales in this region and what we see happening with this very flagrant example of authoritarianism unchecked. Of an authoritarianism that has gone unchecked for far too long and really with the unconscionable unjustified, unprovoked war against Ukraine.
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And those three stools if you will of three legs of that stool if you will of that strategy are as follows. The first is stay united. We've talked a lot about how to stay united and how that is navigated in very difficult situations from energy issues economic issues to sanctions issues etcetera. But it is about also sticking up for each other. It's about why Lithuania I really appreciated the foreign ministers the former minister's comments. Why Lithuania is supporting Taiwan?
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This is about a global discussion about democratic values. The second is mitigating the negative impacts of authoritarianism. And what do I mean by that? I also mean things like decreasing the dependence on sourcing that comes from autocratic countries. Sourcing in energy, of course, we've all discussed that. It's a very complicated conversation but also sourcing that comes from the military, sourcing in the economic world. And that is globally. And the
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third that I would say is going on the offensive with with with democracy. Going on the defensive. It's not about defending democracy. It's about promoting it. It's about renewing it. It's about renewing it globally. Um and to do I think we need a lot sharper tools and so a lot of what my bureau is working on is trying to sharpen those tools. What does it mean for example, to have a digital world that it contributes to digital freedom and contributes to a technology
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for freedom. That's the kind of discussion that I think we want to have. So, with that, I'll pass it back to you and hope for a very open discussion. Kara, thank you very much for great start. Um Why don't I just do this? I'm going to just going to go down the the row here. So, Dan, let let me turn to you next. Yeah, you wrote with US Senator Dan Sullivan, a great piece in in foreign affairs called only bipartisanship can defeat Authoritarian aggression and in
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the beginning, you write, the free world is shrinking, not growing, and then toward the end, you write, Democratic values give the free world a critical advantage in what will likely be another decades-long confrontation with Russia and China just as they did in the Cold War. Square, square those two sentences for me. Okay, wait. Thanks, David. I'm very proud to be here with the new leader of the Bush Institute, the new leader of the McCain Institute, the long-standing
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leader of EPRC, and so many friends from Georgia and elsewhere. Thank you. So, look, a 2022 is a pivot point in world history. It marks a new era of authoritarian aggression in world affairs. Uh I think sometimes we get lost in these theological debates and we can't see clearly what is clear which is that the dangers to a free and open world emanate from dictatorships. Their domestic repression and abuse of their own citizens most basic rights is mirrored in
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aggressive foreign policies that want to take away the rights of independent nations, Ukraine, Taiwan, etcetera. So, if we live in an era of authoritarian aggression, we also know that despite China and Russia, the principal authoritarian aggressors, despite there being so different, they have many things in common and you don't have to take it from me. You can read the Xi Jinping Vladimir Putin joint declaration of the Beijing Olympics to see how much they
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think they have in common. Take them at their own word. They want to make the world safer autocracy. They want to vest sovereignty in autocrats, not in citizens. They want to say countries belong to their leaders, not to their people. They want to of a world of authoritarian spheres of influence. Georgians know what this looks like because they were captive in a Soviet sphere of influence for too many years. Uh they do not want a world in which countries and
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citizens can make their own choices. And I don't want to live in that kind of world. I'm quite sure friends from Georgia and every other country represented this room do not want to live in that kind of world. So we're looking out at a multi-decade competition. It's different from the Cold War but I think we have to think about some of the lessons we learned in the Cold War. One is about the power of alliances, Democratic Alliances, all America's principle allies are strong
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democracies. We have many other security partners but our strongest and closest allies are all democracy's open systems. So, that's a source of security. Why do democracies work together so closely? Uh because we understand that the great dangers to our own citizens and to our own security emanate from Authoritarian regimes. That includes aggression, armed aggression of the kind we see Russia, Ukraine. That includes the export of violent extremism. As Americans saw
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9eleven, many other countries have suffered from. Uh that includes the export of uncontrolled mass migration. It's not to say anything negative about mass migration to say a country like Venezuela, a country like Syria, a third of citizens in these cases have fled their own country. With very destabilizing effects beyond their immediate region. We don't want to live in a world where those are the conditions of the day. We want to shape a world in which democratic
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accountable, transparent governments are responsive to citizens, solve security problems, and produce prosperity. And David, the final thought here. I'm confused by arguments that somehow China's developed a different and superior economic model. Russia clearly or has no alternative model. But this argument that somehow democracy does not produce prosperity. The richest economies in the world are all market democracies, open systems, rule of law, societies. There are
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couple exceptions and they're in the Middle East and they sit on giant fields of oil and gas. So unless you're sitting on a giant field of oil and gas, it turns out that the surest way to deliver prosperity to your citizens is to offer rights, rule of law, and all the transparency that comes from accountable and effective institutions. That's how you produce prosperity and that's how you produce prosperity and democracies are going to need to work much more closely
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together in this new era. Uh so that the authoritarians don't reshape the world to our disadvantage. Dan, thanks very much. So, Kitty, let me turn to you next. As a key player in civil society here, you look at the region and are you optimistic or pessimistic? Of course you asked me the harshest question. Unfortunately, I cannot see that I'm very optimistic right now. I mean, I'm not optimistic regarding my country. Concerning Ukraine, I am very optimistic. I can see that they
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are winning and I am sure they will win. As for my country, we actually, yesterday, I was remembering when we had this conference first. It was, I think, in 2 thousand fourteen, eh, or 15, but we had a moment when we were developing. We had a moment when we had the first, I mean, change of power through elections in two thousand twelve and we were sure that we would be having many of them. Uh we had at one point the first year like a coordination between president and
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parliament which was a very interesting I mean experiment for Georgia and in the very very first years, I'll not be going deeper into our contemporary history but we really had improvement on different indices when we are talking of Freedom House like media situation and actual government and local governments and so on. Unfortunately, I would say, I mean, it's hard to say which year exactly but somewhere from two thousand sixteen when the GD already got the
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constitutional majority, I can say that we are going backwards. Of course, we civil society have been screaming about it and have been trying either to cooperate or to eyes. But I mean what we see now like first of all GD which came is a coalition of parties and many of them being overly provost turn pro democracy and so on. All of them starting to leave exactly in these years like thirteen, 14, 15. And you did developing into one dominant party. Uh right and the word
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even worse thing the I mean even initially that had one and we should mention his name. We cannot go without it. The the guy who had really won the elections in two thousand twelve and had kind of resigned from the Prime Minister's position showing his democratic approaches in a year and a half in reality up to now has been running this country from behind the scenes. So, on the one hand, we see the deterioration of the ruling party on the other hand we see
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the the deterioration of the democracy school wars in Georgia. And where have we come now as of today? As of today we have the former president sitting in the prison. And I would say even worse. We have the media manager sitting in the prison for absolutely ununderstandable charges. So I mean all the major kind of career criteria for democracy. Courts are under influence over the I mean government and the civil society has been struggling for
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of flouristic media but at the same time all the critical media being either under investigation under under some type of pressure and I mean civil society which we still call vibrant but now it's called actually an enemy by the government. So, I I mean I hope I'm not exaggerating or being too grim but
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still 1 opening, you know, for countries like ours like Moldova and Georgia, there was a this window of opportunity of I mean, receiving candidacy and then maybe be becoming members of EU. I mean, once again, the government is actually doing everything not to get it. Though, in reality, blaming everybody, blaming the opposition, blaming the civil society, and god knows else whom.
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are not in a very optimistic state. But still I mean I really have hopes that things will change here again. Will not be stuck with the same government for another decade. And it's paradoxal but we are all waiting for Ukraine to win. But it of course it will not be just Ukraine's ruin. It will be the big win for all of us and I expect also the win for democracy and less Russian influence which I already, I mean, I can see if you want me to start. Russian influence on
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the rise but I think this will also be brought down. So, let me say I'm half optimistic. Fair answer. Thank you. let me let me ask you Linas before I talked about what your country is doing. Do Lithuania s feel they are getting the support and solidarity from fellow democracies in the positions that they are staking out. What more can be done to support Lithuania and other countries that are stepping up. I would say yes. Uh I remember two thousand eight I was then
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Deputy Foreign Minister and I think we were the only country shipping weapons to Georgia than it was very, of course, uncivilized way to support democracies. We were alone. I was alone in Brussels asking ministers to introduce sanctions and I was very much alone to meet Dan Fried in Washington and saying, Dan, what's happening? Well, you all remember what happened. Actually, the west punished Georgia for its leadership on democracy. We did nothing we
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embraced Putin and we now pay for it so dramatically and you know when I'm looking to those people all around I remember, you know, Senator McCain and I remember David I I remember Damon Court, you've been doing it all. So, when you ask us Lithuania s what to do, look to yourself. You've been you know, pushing freedom. been fighting together, we've been strategizing together. What happened with you? So, when I heard President Biden speaking in inaugural speech,
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everything, I was shouting for two decades. I was more or less kind of crying. I said, finally, are they really back to their own constitution? To the things that they have to fight for? Uh and well, I would say, you know, it's kind of close to it but first of all, you know, what we have to do now pray and kneel in, you know, in front of Ukrainians and help them with this war because we are paying for our debts in this Ukrainian war. A lot of people, you know, lost
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their lives in Georgia and Ukraine because I was stupid because of our stupid policies. So, do anything you can. Pay everything from your pocket. Suffer as much as you want. You know, but win this war. This is the only way for us all to survive and then just do what you do did in the Baltics. Extending you, we finally have this candid status. But you know, ask anybody in Brussels, when will you actually start accession talks with Ukrainians? Oh, very bad
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question. And we say next year, please twenty-three twenty-three, and we are ready to finish it during a, during Lithuania presence in twenty-seven, and we are ready to upload to Ukrainian accession to you in 29 before European Parliament is elected and your commission is is is is appointed. This is doable guys. We did it. I did it. I was deputy chief negotiator. I was living in this Soviet **** for you know four years and we fixed it. So the same with NATO. All Americans are
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bloating German leadership. My God. I was in Bucharest Nato summit. I was looking to your eyes. Well Bush eyes were in the in the good place. But you know when I when I see now German leaders fixing themselves. You know I I don't have a wards. Do it. You have summit in one year. Do it please. You know you can do it. And then, you know, talking Taiwan, well, okay, we don't know a lot in Taiwan, but this is about the same. You know, it's about the same looking to
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those, you know, west and seeing them making all possible mistakes in Russia and now doing the same in China. So, you learned it. You, you know, you empowered the beast. And then you were kind of wondering what's happening. So stop doing it with China, please. Embrace Taiwan, embrace wonderful democratic Indo-Pacific world and finally, create new organizations that could fight with weapons, with everything for democracy like Rammstein meet. Great United Nations of
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Democracy. What are you doing in those United Nations? It's a mockery of democracy. All those organizations, you know, hijacked biotocracies. Let's create our own stuff and fight for that. and we we can do it. We did it. Three million of people destroyed the Soviet Union. Looking to those nice eyes of who killed my friends in front of TV Tower. We did it despite all the glorious. So Ukrainians, Georgians, we all can do it. Taiwan, 25 million. I don't know how many times
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more than Lithuania s. We can do it brothers. But let's do it finally.
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I wish you would be passionate about these issues. Um Yasha, I want to step back with you as one of the leading experts on these issues. Bobo took an exception to democracy versus authoritarianism. Um is that a useful way to look at what we are facing now? Well, first of all, this is a tough act to follow. I think I just want him to talk five more minutes. Would that be better? Um look, so, when you hammer everything looks like a nail and I think when you look at the world
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prevalence of one narrative, it's easy to miss a lot of complexities and because we tend to think about the world at the moment with the narrative of democracy versus authoritarianism, I think that there is a real danger. So, I think Bobo was right for example that when you look at Europe alliances right now. It's clear that some democracies are not on the side of Ukraine and in fact after this winter may be more democracies but an odd on the side of Ukraine. That's a real
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danger. Um on the other hand you know United States and the Western Alliance has very friendly relations of certain dictatorships but more or less are on that side. Um even in terms of understanding the nature of regimes. I think there's complexities that go beyond democracy versus dictatorship. One of the things that the last years really reminded me of is a vast difference between you know a relatively functional dictatorship of some kind of constraints on the leader
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especially if it's a political scientist say institutionalized And Diktate Chips in Witch one personen makes all of it any kinder restraints. Dictatorships that are starting to be totalitarian and the extent of social control of the exercise and the extent of allegiance of your command So absolutely let's step back and think about ways in which important features of a world might be obscured by just thinking about it in terms of democracy versus authoritarism.
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However, I do think that in normative terms, the most important thing that is going on in the world at the moment is that our comfortable and lazy assumptions from 10 or 15 years ago, that is on the march and that a vast area of the world has already won freedom and that it's just a matter of time until it expands to our countries has turned out to be wrong. And that there is a very serious danger of democracy being lost in and independence being lost in in Ukraine
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obviously because of the attack in Russia in countries like Georgia. All for that matters in countries like the United States. Um there is a very very serious danger that the 21st century is going to be written by autocrats in Moscow and in Beijing and in other places. And so for all of this sort of ways in which we can make more subtle in which we can and should pay attention to ways in which it obscures certain features of the world. I do think that the conflict between
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democracy and authoritarianism is the essential political battle of the first half of the 21st century. Yes, sir. Thank, thank you very much for that. Um Kara, I want to come back to you. I don't want you to get into US domestic politics. That's not the job of people who work in the state department but you, I'm sure, hear that what aboutism response when we raise concerns about other countries. How do you address that? Yeah, thank you for the question, David.
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So, and I think, you know, the president's speech on Thursday Was all things that may or may not be said about it on the social media and on the the talk shows etcetera. It was certainly from the heart in terms of how he sees these issues. I think the what aboutism is simply answered by the fact that it is one of the fundamental strengths of democracy that it has the ability to self refine. It is why civil society is so important and should be the partner of of government.
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Should be the partner of an opposition. Should be the partner of a country moving forward. It's why businesses is important. It's why Parliaments are important. Um it is a form of government Perhaps the least worst in the words of a famous Brit. Um but it is a form of government that allows self reflection and it allows self refinement and I think it was said well this morning that we we all have work to do to get our houses in order and I think we come at this. Certainly our
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government comes at this from a point of humility. Um very clear humility that we don't have all the answers. This is not a linear trajectory. We have challenges at home? Absolutely, we do. Um but there is a strength that comes from the ability to openly examine that and I keep coming back to our former Justice of the Supreme Court Brandeis who was so interested in corruption and what that means for a country and you know, he he put forward this idea that the best
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disinfectant is sunlight, right? Bring it out into the open. That's what civil society is about. That's what holding each other accountable is about. That's what checks and and balances are about. So, right, without getting into any domestic politics. I think that what we look for and what we try to support internationally in our foreign policy is this ability to be self-refining and to be self-reflecting and to be open to that and to increase that transparency. we have a
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panel at the end of tomorrow about whether the United States but Dan, I want to ask you because again, coming back to your terrific peace and foreign affairs about bipartisanship on this issue. Completely agree. Are you are you confident that we will remain strongly supportive of support for democratic forces, human rights around the world. Um regardless of of what happens in our political situation Thanks, David. So, I I would say a couple things. One, as in
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America, we've been working on our democracy for 246 years and we have work to do and that's the great thing about democracy is it creates the institutions for citizens to engage and improve their democracies. That's point 1. Point 2, I would look to different periods in American history including the early cold war which we wrote about briefly when statesman from the Democratic Party and Statesmen and women from the Republican Party built an internationalist consensus
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that essentially guaranteed seventy, seventy-five, 80 US senate votes for major foreign policy initiatives. That lasted through the Vietnam War, really through the Johnson presidency. So, it lasted for several decades. Uh you just saw in the United States Senate, a 95 to1 vote to enlarge Nato. You saw an 89 to 11 vote to deliver more assistance to Ukraine than the US's single-handedly delivered to any country in a very long time. Uh I think we need to work. I don't see the
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divides as being between left and right so much. I think we worry about isolationists on both sides of the political spectrum. We worry about what President Obama called nation building at home. Which makes sense to a lot of people. And then it's up to statesmen and women. Democrats, Republicans, and independents to go make the case to their citizens. Not just in United States but in every country. About why we need to engage and lead abroad. Why that circles back very
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directly to our prosperity, our national security, and frankly the state and health of our democracy. And last point, for now, is that democracy in the United States or in Georgia, or in Ukraine, or in cannot flourish in a world of authoritarian aggression. Franklin Roosevelt understood this. Ronald Reagan understood this. Many leaders have understood this over the years. That a world in which autocracy is on the march threatens our domestic freedoms. Even if
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we're not interested in foreign policy and national security. So if the health of our democracy is tied to the health of democracy in the world, we need to do more and better.
34:56
This is a mosquito here which I assume came from Moscow. Um Keti Cara mentioned civil society and the important role of that but civil society is sometimes accused of being the rear guard action for regime change. How do you respond to that and and the describe the role of civil society in helping Democratic develop? Uh well, I mean for years, it's kind of already assumed that civil society here is pretty large. Strong and vibrant. I mean, of course, when there are
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changes of regime, civil societies have somehow involved. I would not say that we are of the authors of regime change but but of course, civil society is out there either in the streets or monitoring the election precincts or I mean, developing some policies for future and so on. Uh unfortunately, I mean, of course, with every government at one point, I the the relations are deteriorating which is normal. We are becoming more critical and the governments are also busy
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becoming more critical. Or are disregarding. However, this time we see something more, I would say. You know, on the one hand, we see this polarization which is on the rise in Georgia but unfortunately, very much supported by the government and it's also important that in the in this twelve priorities that Europe proposed us for candidacy for future candidacy, depolarization is one of them, which because it's like obvious. However, while even increasing polarization, only
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one hand, we see the government accusing the opposition for everything, and then tying us directly to the opposition. Exactly when we are ready to play a role of a kind of a middle man, or bringing them together like this to mostly opposing forces. For discussions, they are trying to put us in the other basket and put us actually in one basket, all of us. And unfortunately, there have been cases recently when our colleagues including my employees and me, we have
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been all accused of something horrible. Even wanting war or wanting I mean to I mean not wanting to join the European Union all these accusations that are absurd but they are pretty much accumulated in the recent I mean I would say months and days. Uh it's also my, I think it's I should mention this like after the start of war, there's there has been a very controversial situation in Georgia. On the one hand, you know, the polls show this. I mean, 80% of
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Georgians say that it's our war. It's our war. We know what it is and we are in complete both of you crying. There has been like ah I mean big emotions to help ah Ukrainians here and help Ukraine over there. We are a small country. And civil society has been very instrumental in this. On the other hand we see the government which is sometimes kind of trying to keep neutrality. On these issues or sometimes making I mean, I would say, yeah, controversial
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is the best. Maybe, sometimes you would think that like even ah very capital antique ah statements. I mean and we don't see here a lot of government statements in support of Ukraine. There have been some but very few. And the major thing is we don't hear very clear statements that Russia is aggressive. And we have not heard name Putine. I I correct me if I am wrong. From any government representative recently. As if this guy doesn't exist. So what is this?
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Like a big fear of Russia or even more. It's still hard to say but we definitely see the increased Russian presence and the increased Russian influence even in economy in Georgia. Keti, thank you. Um Jigas, I I want to ask you about the importance of coming to grips with history and accountability. You made reference to the 14 Lithuanians who were killed as the Soviet Union was coming down. Um the Russian forces and Putin are being accused of war crimes,
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crimes against humanity, even genocide. How important is it to come to grips with a country's war crimes and and it's historical terrible mistakes. Well, it's it's about the same what we talked, you know, when I think everybody saw that movie Munich on on Netflix. You know, I saw it so many times during my life, those Munichs, you know, actually Georgia 2008 was Munich of 21st century and and and again and again. So, don't appease dictatorships, no talkracies. Shrine now. Yes,
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defend United Nations Charter. Our grandfathers, you know, made such a such a prize for it and well, every generation is of course just one generation from freedom and you know, it's it's it's difficult. It's it's not a material stuff. It's spiritual understanding that you have to do it. Maybe everyone has to learn it but please learn from your own history. From the history of America but also coming back a bit to this unity is you. You know, it's so ironic that to
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each McCain Conference, we come with Linus with different chapos. You know, we change. He's ruling. Now, you know, then I'm opposing. You know, now I'm ruling He's kind of, I don't know, social democrat but we we never been together as parties. We fight with each other, those social democrats and Christian Democrats but we are so much united on Georgia, on every foreign and security policy aspect and today with symbolically met with Georgian foreign minister together And
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we were asking him just one thing. Unity please on those twelve points. You have again new chance. I still remember the road map. All other chances missed. And again you have a chance. And please look this is so similar to Lithuania history. You know we were kind of stupid to ninety-seven. Not like Estonians you know. We were resisting who were shouting at Brussels. We didn't want to do a lot of stuff. And you know then they invited Estonians folk session talks.
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We fixed ourselves. We united. And they invited us in 2 years. So now Georgia has a chance but no chance if you still fight with each other. And when I say fight with each other I mean you all. Please unite. You know. I was working for communist that I hated. Really. Honestly. Hate it But we did it together. And now we kind of remember and write books about that. So please unite because if you miss another year and another year Russians will drink a lot of champagne. This
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is their victory. You know they kind of after the war they left Russian tanks in your hearts and minds. Mhm. And they still fight. A lot of little tanks here as well. Um I'm going to turn to Yasha for the last question from me and then we'll open it up to the audience but Yasha the the sad fact is among the Democratic community of nations we are not united when it comes to Russia's invasion of Ukraine you look at India you look at Brazil, countries in Africa.
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How concerning is that when you see foreign minister Lavrov travelling in Africa making the Russian case that this is all because of sanctions that they're facing. A food crisis in other ways. Uh what does it say about the largest democracy in the world not being on board. Well, it was very wrong. I mean, look, I'm also really worried about what's going to happen in Europe after this winter, right? You're going to have very serious increases in in food and energy prices.
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You're going to have potentially certain forms of shortages. All of this is 100% because of the cowardice of these countries over the last 10 or 20 years because of their lack of clarity and the lack of strategic thinking. Going back to the first question you asked me. One of the prices you pay when you don't look at the world at all through a perspective of Democracy versus that it can convince yourself that deals for Putin are purely economic matter but has no
44:00
political implications. A menu event essentially become dependent in your autonomy and in your ability to make decisions on a dictator you can decide whether or not your pensioners can heed for homes. But now we're in the situation where some pensions going to struggle to heat the homes and I worry about the political consequences that that's going to have internally in terms of the rise of extremist parties but also externally in terms of a willingness of these
44:27
governments to actually stand with Ukraine as relatively clearly as behalf over the course of the last six or seven months. So, the unity of democracies is fundamentally important. It's very worrying that countries like India and Brazil are not clearly standing with Ukraine but I even want to enlarge the set of questions here which is that if we're thinking about whether the world is going to be a democratic world in 2050 or 2075 or 2, 100. If we think
44:59
about whether we're able to have this horrible term, the rules-based order in a sustainable way so that through the end of our lives and the lives of our children, we can have peace and prosperity in the world. That question is going to be decided in India, in Brazil, Nigeria, in Kenya, and many of those countries. And so I think we need a much clearer vision for how to make those values convincing and relevant. How to bring those values to parts of the world.
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Brave activists fighting for them. Brave civil society organizations fighting for them. But in which we can do more to model why they should embrace fully that vision and naked their own because the 21st century is only going to be a democratic century if it's if it's heartland migrates from the United States and France to Ukraine and Georgia and Nigeria and India. Thank you. Um turn to the audience. I see James will will come to all this. James first. James Nixey right
46:04
there. Tally, did you hear me? So, thank you very much. Is it working this time? Yeah. Um how how does a panel please square the notion that Dan expressed that you can't live with or tolerate an authoritarian Russia, a fascist regime like Russia because it negatively affects our own societies, our own democracies, it means us harm, it does us harm. With not calling for a change of that regime, IE regime change which I didn't hear you call for but maybe I missed the subtext. How
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do you square those two? Uh let's take one more Vitaly right here at front.
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I just have a quick quick comment. Ah do you want to meet it right away? Well, hi, my name is Vitali Schlerov. I'm a former Hobbit fellow in Belarusian activist. I just want to quickly commend first of all, David, thank you so much for a great panel. It's wonderful and I just want to quickly comment because Cara said about self defining and huge role of civil society and about potter of their position, being a parter of opposition. I just want to remind you that
47:24
that's where we've been talking a lot about how to support Ukraine Uh there are not and how quick to deliver weapons and military and financial support. So, I believe the support starts right couple levels below talking about opposition. Talking about political prisoners and in this sense, I just want to remind you how many political prisoners and and how many activists are still suffering in Belarus in a country where I'm from. That's our over 1, 300 and in this sense in in
47:59
and so on and I believe that's where the support should start. We are asking ourself what we can do whether to deliver weapons or not and and and in which capacity. But look how we do support the position. Uh in Georgia, the famous oppositional channel is about to close in Georgia and chief of main oppositional channel is in prison. Uh in Belarus, there are over 1, 300 political prisoners and talking about Linus and the amount
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support and recognize Sidlana 2020 after 35, 000 people were arrested. The only European country, get it? Only European country to recognize not the leader of position but fairly elect legitimately elect president elect of Belarus. There's not single country yet in Europe to recognize her, to give her credentials, diplomatic credentials, and help the opposition that suffers daily to get out of misery because as someone and of the panelist said it before,
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I I believe previous panel we don't have to send troops to Ukraine. Uh we just can't deliver money and weaponry. So, the same year, you don't have to get to Georgia or Belarus or or Armenia or whatever. Just support the groundwork of opposition and civil activists. Thank you for saying that. Thank you. I I did want to give you that opportunity to take the floor because obviously what's happening in Belarus needs much more attention than it's been getting. Um regime change was
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that directed to you? Yeah, I don't know why it was directed at me. Uh but I'll take, I'll take it. You're the tallest one on the pant. So look, it's people in these countries who have to do the work, right? It's not up to the United States or anybody else. Uh we know for instance in Belarus that most Belarusians are opposed to the war. We know that the woman who won the elections in Belarus two years ago as opposed to the war and has condemned the war. There
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would be no Russian assault on Ukraine through Belarus if Belarus was a democracy. I mean you can just magnify that around the world. It's for Bella Russians to do that work. It's for Russians to do that work. Ukrainians have done that work. Uh Ukrainian friend reminded us over the weekend. Ukraine's had three democratic revolutions. Just in the last generation. Fighting, fighting, fighting. For greater public voice accountability transparency. The reason
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Vladimir Putin invaded Ukraine is because he saw Ukrainians. Right. Throw out a corrupt dictator in the Maidan in 2014 and he's worried that someday Russians will do that to him. So, I love it when people tell me. People who live in comfortable democracies, they say, oh, this is ideological. You know, we have to be realistic. What's realistic is to understand that autocrats are driven by ideological insecurity around letting people have a choice which is why Putin controls his
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elections which is why Xi Jinping about to be heralded as leader of China for life without any public input, right? So, I think we have to be quite confident in the values of people. IRI works in 100 countries and all of those 100 countries, people want a greater voice, greater dignity, greater accountability from their leaders. Uh so, there's no geopolitical project. I think Kara's right. Uh we should trust in people to make sound choices and the world
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would be better if people could elect their rulers everywhere. Anyone else want to weigh in on this? Um I'll weigh in just really quickly about the the dissonance that you you signaled. I think we see internal repression, and external aggression is two sides of the same coin. So, when we see for example, transnational repression, the export of autocratic models, misuse of multilateral institutions to go after dissidents. This is just an expression externally of what's
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happening internally. So, very much I think in terms of how we approach these issues generally, it is with that holistic view. I also want to thank you so much for raising Belarus because it's much on our priority list, we have been absolutely supporting Stalwart supporters of not only but of all of those who have paid with their family members' lives, their lives who are still in prison. 1300 I think still in prison. Um it is absolutely an imperative that we can continue
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to call this out and not allow Lukashenka to escape responsibility for the facilitation he has done of this war.
52:53
Well, just one word, I agree on Belarus, eh, but, you know what? Uh I remember Sandra McCain again. Uh he was teaching me, you know, focus. Make things work. Not not you know, enough of talks. If all of our nations would concentrate on this, if in two, 3 months, we kill Putin regime in Ukraine with everything we have. And it's an easy fix to all our problems. Belarus, GM, Maldova, Europe, Holland Free, you name it. So, thank you Nino. To pointing it, just do
53:35
it. Americans, you know, everyone Germans Brits French, you have it. You have it all what is needed. We gave everything what we have and we will give it even more. Fix it. Two, 3 months. And then, you know, no more conferences, just
54:00
Well, I was with you right up until the end.
54:08
We'll come back to that over dinner. Uh Yugi then Batu and then right there. We'll we'll try to take these last four. Thank you. I'm Giro Gandalacki with European Georgia. When non democracies become democracies and conversely when democracies break down. This always has profound geopolitical consequences. Belarus is one example. Back in the day it was a promising emerging European democracy. When Lukashenko won fair elections. I think there is a consensus now that in
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Georgia we're having a democratic backsliding. And one of the things that this war has exposed is that this process has been accompanied with Georgia's gradual drift towards the Kremlin orbit. Georgia is in icy relations with Ukraine. I would even call it diplomatic war. President Zelensky has recalled Ambassador from Georgia and he did that for a reason. And the geopolitical consequences of this democratic backsliding going even further are fully understood and reflected upon
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in key capitals. Thank you. Thanks. Uh just hand it over to Batu Gyogi. Thanks. ah thank you ah thank you very much I'm pretty sure if not in previous life, in next life you will be Georgian.
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I represent the Tavari Channel. I'm the lawyer and director of the channel. Thank you for mentioning Nikka Guadamia's case. Uh actually Sophia, Nikka's wife is here with me today. Um miss Kara McDonald mentioned the word agenda and about promoting democracy. My question is, is it in US agenda and the strategic decision to intensify and increase support of freedom of speech in Georgia and free media and their fight against politicides, justice, and politicized prosecution
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because and especially considering the context, the Ukraine war, war is not about the military power, right? Because there's information war and one can say, sometimes it's more powerful than the military one and there's no democracy without free speech and we we talk about Democracy. Uh the Georgia's case has proven and our case has proven that the most practical and tangible means to fight against authoritarianism is free media. So is it a strategic decision
58:22
and is it is it in the US agenda to support Georgian free media? Thank you. Thank you. Giga, sorry. I I promised her the last question. We'll hear from you tomorrow, I promise. Last question there, right there. Standing up. Uh hold on for a mic. Oh, can I get up? Be careful. Take it away. Well, sorry. Oh, hold on. I mean, it's it's more than normal already. Yeah. Thank you so much. Um my name is Kim Cordova. I'm with the Harvard Graduate School of Design. We've you've spoken so
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much about the importance of articulating, convincing, and relevant values. That this is a fight for a vision of the future. So, I'm wondering in what way would you call in the arts and cultural sector to be comrades or maybe that's the wrong word but to be aligned in this struggle
59:23
Alright, who wants to start? We can quickly run down the panel and we'll wrap up with this. Sure, Kara, go ahead. You want me to start? Yeah, please. Okay. Um free media. 100%. The answer to that is a resounding yes. So, when I talked about sharpening the tools of going on the offensive, free media is a part of that. Absolutely. I think I cannot express enough our concern about what we see happening with civil society is fed with independent media here
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in Georgia. I'm so appreciative for your presence here. Um why? Because we're great friends of Georgia and we have invested. We're not bystanders. We're investors. We're shareholders in Georgia. We're we care very much but we can't want it more than they do. We can't want it more than you do. So, that gets back to Dan's Point. I think about sort of it coming from within and I would really echo the sentiment from the last panel about don't lose the opportunity. Do not lose this
1:00:27
opportunity. You do not know how many times it will come around again. Um and we by ready to support. Okay, that's that's free media. Just quickly on the Georgia geopolitical consequences. Yes, absolutely that is recognized. I do agree that what happens in Ukraine is going to affect here in Georgia and so this is why I think we have this focus and this this this laser focus on on on the war against Ukraine but absolutely, it has it it it has import. It absolutely has
1:01:02
import. The last thing I want to say if you'll permit me, David, Putin did not expect in in military planning, right? You have all the assumptions listed and Putin made two wrong assumptions. He did not expect two things. He did not expect the bravery of the Ukrainian people to push back and he did not expect unity from not just the west but the globe. That's the strategy to victory right there. Never forget the power of people to fight for their own human dignity and freedom.
1:01:39
So, just very quickly, I would love to speak to a few of the issues in Georgia with reference to Ukraine. Uh you know, sometimes you hear arguments, you need a strong government to protect the country or you know, you have to limit free media for reasons of national security or you have to control civil society. Because they maybe influence agents of foreign influence. Uh this and that. I think we should look at Ukraine. Uh Putin did not think it was a
1:02:04
real country. He believed his own propaganda. He thought he could kill or capture the leader and the country would collapse. But it turns out that Ukraine a very resilient democracy with real and strong democratic institutions elected mayors, and governors, not just the leaders in Kiev, and a very vibrant civil society. We have Ukrainian Civil Society leaders with us today. All of those people together collectively have helped protect and defend Ukraine in its moment of
1:02:35
maximum peril. Investments in democratic resiliency including free media, independent courts, very strong civil society, effective institutions, that is the surest source of security for any country including a country like Georgia. Um can I ask the people over on this side to shut up? Please Ketty. Yeah. I think Batu mean to you guys to respond but I'll also try to respond to this. Uh where are we? Are we democracy? Are we autocracy? I think neither one nor the other.
1:03:13
Actually we have never developed into a consolidated democracy. But we have been moving somewhere on this factor of hybrid you know? Like half democracy. However now when I was thinking like where we belong. The closest we came. It's competitive Authoritarianism. This is this term of look on the way and Levits ky I mean on the one hand we do have plurality of parties. I mean incredible amount of parties. We have plurality of media. We have civil society and we have
1:03:49
elections. But the other thing is that for the last 10 years elections end with the same results. With the ruling party I mean becoming a domin party always getting the results in their favor. So, this is like this competitive authoritarianism. I think cannot be staying like this. It will either move into like, I don't know, either dictatorship or complete authoritarian or it can go back or force to democracy. I think that's that's where we are now. Well, just replying to Batu's
1:04:29
question about Georgian. Uh
1:04:35
of the Baltics, you know it. Uh and and we are proud of it. Because we are proud of you. We know you for ages.
1:04:48
to compare with Lithuania s. We've been just starting to kill first Russians when you've been doing a lot of stuff here.
1:05:02
do a UNATO. But you know what?
1:05:15
against each other. So turn it all against the Russians and win that war finally. That's in your hands. the last word to you. Well, there was a question earlier about pessimism and optimism and I wanted to zoom out because there's a lot of reasons for pessimism but all of us can think of. I just flew in from United States. There's a lot of reasons to be pessimistic about what's happening in the country and it's going to happen in the country in 20 twenty-four. I'm
1:05:41
flying onto Italy. I think for some reasons to be concerned about the upcoming elections there. Uh lots of reasons to be worried in the world. I do think that fundamentally there's two reasons to be optimistic about democracy that haven't really changed in twenty five or 30 years and it actually have been confirmed by developments this year particularly in Ukraine. The first is that there still isn't a credible alternative to democracy but actually has real
1:06:10
ideological pull and appeal to a large number of people. There are some semi-four town regimes with a relatively efficient like Singapore. But there is no model that people in other countries want to and that I think is a very important reason to be optimistic about democracy. Because there just isn't a sustainable alternative to it. I mean the second reason is that you know, people, human beings are idiots. And when we have something good, it's easy
1:06:44
to take it for granted and to forget about it. But when we lose it, we come to really regret it. And that's often how we feel about liberty and democracy. When countries are democratic, they complain and they talk about all of the problems that are real problems often. And they're even willing to vote for people who are undermine worse democracies But when we lose the liberty, when the national independence is under threat, they do rise to the occasion and we've seen
1:07:10
that so powerfully in Ukraine over the last months. And so when you ask me about where we're going to be in twenty-5 or 50 or 100 years, perhaps somebody will invent a political system that makes democracy second best. It's imaginable. But I don't see any indications of it. And until that is the case, I do think that even under really difficult circumstances, people will fight for the freedom and will fight for democracy. Um, it does make me optimistic It has It
1:07:43
has been my distinct privilege and pleasure to moderate this great Panel Kara Dan Keti, Jigas, Yasha. Thanks so much. And you, David. Jegus. Jegus, go ahead. Um so, ladies and gentlemen, that concludes today's session. We'll be back tomorrow at ten o'clock. Um for for participants in the conference, we leave it.
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