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0:08
Hello everybody, I'm delighted to welcome you. I can see it's still technically 1859, so I'm just going to wait for a minute or two to see if there are any.
0:21
Last minute comments, don't forget we do have a question and answer box, so if you'd have any questions that that occur to you whilst Cara is telling us about her career, please do pop those in there. The people that popped questions in the forum, I've got those and will be answering those as well, so.
0:46
I've got the Q&A up.
0:49
Kara, shall we make a start? Yes, that that would be great. Thanks, bryani. OK, brilliant. So hello everybody. I'm bryna Gilbert. I'm a student experience manager in the OU Law School and for the past couple of years I've been working predominantly on West 111 and West 321. And I'm absolutely delighted to introduce the latest in our series of 14. Short bringing law to life talks and our speaker this evening. Is Cara sells, who is a criminal defence solicitor as
1:27
well as an AL on a number of modules. And car is going to be telling us a little bit about some of the ups and downs of being a defence solicitor.
1:38
And and what she might come across in in a day's work.
1:44
And talking about some of the challenges of of the profession, but just a little introduction before I turn to Cara. And that's really to remind you that as I said, there are fourteen of these events. There's another one tomorrow I believe and some more going into July. So please do sign up if any of them attract your interest. And as you can see, we are recording. So if you would aren't able to attend some of the other sessions but would like to watch the recordings,
2:18
please do feel free and there'll be information. In the forum on the student's Law student home. Law study home pages.
2:29
Where you can access those.
2:32
And one of the purposes of of doing these sessions really is to bring to the floor some of the issues around diversity equality. So we've looked at some of the many, many roles that are wonderful. Tutors play when they're not teaching for the OU, and we've had some great discussions around how accessible and how diverse the various areas of the legal profession might be. And that's important because although the legal profession talks about diversity being valuable.
3:10
It's not been very quick to take many steps to make things more inclusive, even though it's an objective of the regulatory bodies and the law says we should be encouraging an independent, strong and diverse profession. So, for instance, although we've got.
3:31
A slight majority of solicitors are female. Only 19% come from minority ethnic groups. Only 6% are disabled.
3:45
Fewer than 5%.
3:49
Are declared as lesbian, gay, or bi, and fewer than 20% come from what are regarded as lower socioeconomic backgrounds. And even though there are 53% women. The number of women in senior partner positions and and higher positions in firms is not representative of the number of women in the profession as a whole, so there are lots of issues and our series of talks aims to increase awareness and understanding not just of the obstacles that I've mentioned,
4:24
but actually the opportunities that and the support that are there for our students. Particularly if you're in one of the groups that are traditionally traditionally. Underrepresented in the legal profession.
4:40
So with all of that in mind, I'm delighted to introduce Cara, who is going to talk to us, as I say, about being a criminal defence solicitor. And Cara, I think the place to start is to ask you a little bit about your career journey and and how you got to be a defence solicitor.
5:02
Thanks, Bryony. Yes, my journey into becoming a solicitor wasn't following the conventional path of leaving, you know, going to school, doing my O levels and a levels and then going to university. I actually left school when I was about 16. I had a handful of O levels. I'm showing my age here by referring to O levels rather than GCSE.
5:30
And I left school at 16 and I didn't really know what what to do. I went from job to job and eventually I ended up working in a solicitors firm as a receptionist and that's when I became interested in the law and in particular, criminal law.
5:53
I gradually worked my way up and became a legal secretary and then a practise manager, and I also decided to study for for some exams via correspondence. Course you may have heard of legal executives, so that was the course that I did by correspondents. And then I decided.
6:16
Actually, I'd quite like to go to university and get a degree just because.
6:22
I felt as if I had missed out academically at school and for me to get a degree was my main aim and I thought, well, I might as well do it in law because I've had this experience in law and I'd also passed a few legal executive exams. So I went to university aged 25. And I did a law degree and I got my law degree. But even at the end of my law degree, I wasn't. I didn't feel confident enough to go on and become a solicitor.
6:56
You know, I came from a very sort of working class family. No one had been to university. Everyone in my family were actually quite surprised that I'd gone to university and that I'd managed to get a degree that was just, like, unheard of in our family.
7:11
So to take the further step and become a solicitor was a bit daunting.
7:17
But after I did my degree, I went back to working in a solicitors office and a couple of years passed and I just thought actually, do you know what, I'm just going to go on and do the LPC, the legal practising certificate, which is now sqe.
7:36
And I did the LPCI work full time.
7:41
In a solicitor's office and as a paralegal. Local secretary and I did the LPC part time in the evening and then finally I passed the LPC and I managed to get a training contract with the firm. But I was already paralegal with and that's when I qualified as a solicitor aged 32 so.
8:07
It was quite a sort of long journey to becoming a solicitor.
8:12
But you know, everyone's capable. Of of, of getting to to that point of becoming a solicitor. So don't feel that you can't become a solicitor because you know you haven't done your A levels or you know, you feel that you're not academically able enough. You know, you might surprise yourself. So just don't give up and persevere if that's what you want to do, then you know, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to do that. So. So yeah, that that was my sort of career path to.
8:45
Becoming a solicitor.
8:48
And I really enjoy it. I I work in a criminal defence solicitors Hey excellent.
8:53
now quite a big firm and I've been doing it for 23 years. Qualified now for 23 years.
9:00
Did you find when you were thinking of joining the profession and when you joined it, that there was that there were barriers there for you there because of your background?
9:14
I feel I I feel because because I came from a working class background it wasn't, you know, it felt a bit out of my reach.
9:24
And also being female as well.
9:29
Going into a criminal law, which was sort of traditionally seen as a sort of more male dominated area of law to to get into.
9:40
But as I've throughout the years, so many more women. Have come within you. You know they've qualified and they're they're practising criminal law. And now I would say it's more or less a even split. So. So that's really good to see. But as you said Bryony, even though there is small women coming into the legal profession and being solicitors there, you know it's quite unusual for a woman to be a partner in in a law firm. It is predominantly male, but I think that is gradually changing as
10:13
as time goes on.
10:15
That's that's great to hear.
10:18
So would you say that?
10:21
Certainly the the criminal law firms.
10:26
Are accessible and diverse.
10:29
I think they are. I think criminal laws are very good area of law to get in is there's such a good mix of people?
10:39
When you go to court, you know you meet other solicitors. They come from all different backgrounds, all different ethnic mix.
10:48
Yeah, and and all different ages, people with disabilities, I think criminal law is a bit because of the nature of the law that you've gone into. It's just, you know, it's more.
11:03
Encompassing of different people coming from different backgrounds. This is just such a good mix of people.
11:11
Yeah, I I'm quite yeah. I think that that's the case really it is quite open to to people with all different backgrounds. Disabilities. Yeah. Yeah, talking about disabilities and and in particular physical disabilities, would you say that there are barriers, perhaps not in your office, but say the old court buildings or old police stations, which might make it more difficult if you had an additional physical need?
11:43
Yes, that that is very true. I mean the court buildings are so old, a lot of them. In fact, if if a client is disabled in any way, for instance, if they're in a wheelchair, then there's only one court in Sussex, which is where I practise from that can accommodate somebody in a wheelchair.
12:06
That's, you know, from the client's perspective, from the defendant's perspective. But people working as solicitors.
12:14
Accessibility is probably an issue in some court buildings. If it is a wheelchair user.
12:23
But I think you know.
12:27
Things are done to try and enable people with disabilities generally, so there are reasonable adjustments.
12:35
You know, people who are partially blind, for instance, will receive extra help and yeah, it's just, yeah, some of the. The court buildings don't lend themselves really to to wheelchair uses for, for example, I can think of that's that's the most obvious thing, yeah. Yeah, something hasn't changed. Hasn't changed much since my day when I Yeah. worked with the solicitor who was in a wheelchair, who very often had to stay at the bottom of the stairs while his clock went
13:04
upstairs and sat behind council or did whatever.
13:08
Oh yeah, that's yeah, that's no good. So yeah.
13:10
Or courts that were over over, you know, above the town hall or the library or Yeah. whatever. So. So there are, there are issues there. Is there any particular advice you might give to students on overcoming hurdles of accessibility? Either physical or issues around discrimination.
13:32
No, I mean it it very much depends on which firm you apply to.
13:39
You know it's it's not solicitors. Offices vary so much in.
13:47
You know, different types of solicitors that they employ.
13:51
So and they have different policies surrounding these sorts of issues. So I think it very much just depends on the solicitors that that you apply to really each has their own different guidelines on these things. There's not one sort of universal.
14:08
The policy for all the solicitors. Yeah, lovely. Thank you. So coming to sort of your day-to-day work, can you tell us a little bit about the people at agencies that you might come across in a typical day and who you might have to deal with?
14:28
Well-being a criminal defence solicitor, one of the great things about the job is that you do.
14:36
Deal with such a different mix of people. So the people that I tend to interact with apart, obviously from the the clients.
14:46
Are police officers, you know, magistrates, barristers, psychiatrists, other experts? Probation, youth offending service. So you know, people from all sort of different walks of life and different backgrounds and it's. Yeah, it's just great. You meet such meet such different characters on a sort of day-to-day basis. I mean that that is one of the the joys of the job really.
15:14
What about the downsides of the chop?
15:18
The downsides is that well, working within the criminal justice system generally because it's, you know, it's it's just it's going downhill. The criminal justice system, it is broken. That's just. And so therefore morale can be quite low at times is quite hard working within the criminal justice system when things aren't working.
15:46
And due to legal aid cuts as well, everything's been sort of stripped back to the bone.
15:51
You know, as that court the other day is court duty solicitor and you're waiting for clients to come over from the police stations that have been remanded overnight to appear in court in the morning. And there's now only one sort of prison van that services the whole of Sussex, so that this one van will just drive to each police station in Sussex, like, Hastings Brighton Crawley.
16:17
And Worthing and collect all the prisoners and then deliver them to court. So by the time they actually get to court, it's. Midday.
16:27
And then the court only has.
16:31
A certain number of cells in the building in the you know in the basement, so they only have about 8 cells, so a lot of the prisoners, they have to stay at the police station until people are dealt with in court to make room for the other lot to come over. If you see what I mean. And that's because it's just there's been cutbacks and so there's only one prison van. I mean, that's just one recent example. But you know, we've encountered. So there's a lot of waiting around.
17:03
Dealing with the legal aid board is, you know, a lot of red tape. I don't know if you've heard recently, Bryony, but they have had a cyber attack on the legal aid agency. Great. It's not really much in the news like Marks and Spencer's was, but so because of that, legal aid bills aren't being processed and firms aren't getting the money that they need coming through from. On it.
17:26
From the legal aid department as well.
17:30
So there is various issues and sometimes you know you are dealing with quite difficult people, but you know that is part of the job, but that can take its toll. What I find sometimes is that you know, you sometimes you're dealing with offences and especially.
17:48
Offences to do with the Internet and things like that, which is really widen the scope of, you know, criminal offences.
17:57
And the things that people do on the Internet are just, you know, it plunges me into despair. Sometimes. I just think, you know, if the mind boggles. Quite frankly, so sometimes I get I get a bit low just thinking about how humanity has, I don't know, seems to have got worse. But as you know, sometimes you can sort of think along those lines, but generally speaking, you know, I really love the job. And yeah, it's just great. It's just each day is different.
18:27
Do you have any? Sorry that this is probably springing a question on you, but you've raised a really interesting point there about sort of well-being and and work life balance and so on. Do you have any tips for looking after your mental well-being when you're dealing with distressing cases or or difficult issues or frustrations? I think it's just. Yeah, I think it's just good to to talk to your colleagues. You know, it's it's because being a solicitor,
18:57
you have to be so careful about confidentiality. So it's not like you can offload to anyone. So just to make sure you have the opportunity of, you know, speaking to your other work colleagues, other solicitors.
19:11
And you know, I think generally we're quite a supportive bunch of each other because we we each appreciate how difficult the job can be and how depressing it can be at times and.
19:24
You know, disturbing and upsetting and there are days where it does sort of get to you. So just to have, you know, just to be able to talk it through with your colleagues, who who will understand.
19:38
Is is, you know, it's very important to do that. Try not to let it sort of don't bottle it up otherwise you know it could manifest in different ways and affect your ability to to do the job. So I think it is important that you do talk through. I mean I know with the Crown Prosecution Service they actually have a helpline. For for solicitors who are struggling with caseloads and are being affected by, you know their caseload.
20:10
But unfortunately there isn't the equivalent for criminal defence solicitors, so that's why it's even more important Hmm.
20:17
that you speak to your colleagues and get support that way.
20:22
Thank you. That's great. So just a sort of couple of wrap up questions. What's your work life balance like? I mean are we talking about getting dragged out in the middle of the night to go to the police station and that sort of thing? Yeah, I used to do that.
20:39
When I was training, you're expected to do everything. So I did my training in London and I did get called out in the middle of the night and it was. It was quite tough, you know, you'd be going to Peckham police station in the middle of the night or, I don't know, Chuck knee or somewhere. You never know where where you'd end up in London. And yeah, you have to be quite, you know, you have to have quite a quite a lot of
21:02
stamina and then you're expected to go to court in the morning as well on the back of, you know, having a night out at the police station.
21:11
So it can be very hard. I mean, my work life balance now is fine because I just work two days a week as a solicitor and then three days a week with the OU. And I don't have to do out of hours because, you know, I've sort of earned my stripes doing that. I can if I want to. And I do occasionally because you get paid extra for doing that. So sometimes it's nice to top up your salary, but it's it's not a requirement. Now that I have to do so. So. So that's great, yeah.
21:43
And finally, before we move on to some of the fantastic questions that the students have posted, did you have or do you have any specific role models or mentors?
21:57
Where along the way.
22:00
Yeah, along the way. Definitely, when I did my training at the solicitors firm that I work for in London, I work with a solicitor called Harriet, Westridge in fact I did my training with her for about 6 months and you may have Oh yeah, yeah. I've heard of her.
22:16
heard of her. She's in fact, I think she's referred to in in West 111 because she was one of the the well. She was the solicitor that represented. Sally Challon in her appeal against sentence. Yeah.
22:33
And yeah, she's just very inspiring. And she set up a centre justice for women and she's worked on many high profile cases. And yeah, it was a privilege doing part of my training with her many moons ago. I don't even know should Remember Me. But I certainly remember her and yeah. So she's been an inspiration and occasionally you see her on Channel 4 News or she's written an article in The Guardian. She also represented the family. Of the de Menzies case, where somebody was was shot by the Met
23:06
Police mistakenly because they thought he was a terrorist. Yeah. So she's had a very sort of interesting, you know, history with it within the legal profession.
23:20
Also, another woman that I worked with when I was doing my training in London called Vera Beds and she's now a Labour M Pi. Whenever.
23:29
Believe. Or maybe she's a policy adviser for the government, I'm not sure. But. It's not in the House of Lords, is she? I have a feeling she might be. Yeah, yeah. She might be, yeah.
23:42
So she she was the QC on a murder trial that I was clerking at the Old Bailey, and there were three defendants, and she represented our defendant, and we also had a junior counsel as well, called Bernard Richmond. And he's now a Casey.
24:02
And she was just absolutely amazing. She was just awesome. Like just razor sharp wit.
24:10
And yeah, she was just her advocacy was brilliant. So I found her very inspiring.
24:17
And Michael Mansfield, he's written a couple of books.
24:21
And I read one of his books. He's a very prominent Casey. For those of you who haven't heard of him. And he, he wrote a book that I read a few years ago. I wrote it down. I can't find it now. Memoirs of a radical lawyer. So I would recommend that because he's he's worked on lots of interesting cases including the Birmingham 6.
24:48
He represented Barry Balsara in the Jill Dando case and Stephen Lawrence and many other cases that you'll be familiar with, so he's inspiring as well. Yeah, he's a very inspiring speaker, isn't he? And you, Yes. you'll probably find him somewhere on YouTube. I would think on a Ted talk. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. It's sadly Cara where time is running very short, but we have some really great questions.
25:13
So if we can deal with these quite quickly, please.
25:18
The first one was do you need to be immaculately presented all the time? For instance, our tattoos or piercings ever acceptable? What a great question. It is a great question.
25:32
I think in criminal law is is the area of law that you'd probably the most getaway with, you know, having a few tattoos and piercings. I have seen solicitors with piercings appearing in court and tattoos. The main thing is that as long as you wear a suit, I think that's the main thing. Yeah, lots of police officers have tattoos and piercings. So I think it's, you know, becoming the norm.
25:59
I I think if you were to become a barrister and appear in the Crown Court, I think that would be more of an issue, but I think if you were appearing in the Magistrates Court, they're a lot more lenient as long as you wear a suit, I think that's the main thing. So I don't think that's the total bar to becoming a solicitor. Great. OK. We've touched on this a bit, but just very quickly, your top tips for securing a training contract within criminal law law.
26:28
Oh, it is quite difficult, isn't it, to secure a training contract? I think the main thing is that you're trying to get your foot in the door of any sort of firm of solicitors.
26:41
And just.
26:43
Initially, volunteer yourself to to work free of charge, just to volunteer or shadow someone, and then if they like you, they will hopefully keep you on. Maybe you can then step up a bit and do paralegal work and then ultimately get a training contract with them. But I would say do your research. When I was looking for a job in London, I wrote to several law firms that I really wanted to work for.
27:16
And I made sure that they covered the areas of law that I wanted to practise in, and I wrote to them. And and I did to get a job as a paralegal at this firm. And then when I was doing my LPC alongside being a paralegal at the end of it, they actually offered me a training contract. So but make sure you do your research. The firm I work for, we get a lot of letters from students and we're very happy to, to offer them work experience. But a lot of people will say, oh,
27:46
you know your firm. It's a great firm. I really want to work for you, you know, because we're especially interested in contract law or found. And you just think, well, we don't do contract law. You know, we're a criminal law firm. So clearly you haven't done your research. So just make sure you really do your research and tailor your letters accordingly. Just persevere and hopefully you'll get there.
28:09
Fantastic. Now a couple. We've we've only got a couple of minutes left, so I'm not going to be able to get through all the questions here. But what we will do is we will post them in the forum. And Cara, I think you've very kindly said that you will respond in the forum to people. Absolutely. I'd be happy to answer any questions, yeah. That that would that would be brilliant. So if anybody else has any questions that they want to ask, please do pop them in the forum, which you will find.
28:41
Under the Connect tab in law study home. So so I will post the other questions in there. Grace, I think I need some slides.
28:56
Cara, thank you so much.
28:58
Well, it's been a pleasure. This thank you. Just a quick reminder to everybody of the career resources. So if you're feeling inspired now to go and think about well, how do I become a criminal solicitor? Do check out the career service. They are lovely people, very happy to talk to you.
29:18
They've got a career planning guide. They've also got opportunity hub that's and help with CVS and interview practise. They carry as I as I believe lists of.
29:32
Open days or trade?
29:36
Studentship schemes, internships, that sort of thing. So do do please get in touch with the career service. They are a wealth of information.
29:47
We've also got the resources on building your career with confidence and navigating your future pathway. And don't forget that you as an OU graduate, don't forget all those soft skills that you've got your time management, your ability to juggle, lots of different things at once, to multitask, to focus, and to keep going when things get tough. Firms like people that can be resilient, I think, isn't that that right, Cara. Yes definitely.
30:18
Yeah. So you have got all those skills. Don't undersell yourselves. I think would be the thing to say. And my final thing is please do remember to complete the feedback survey which Grace has kindly posted in the questions and answers box.
30:37
Kara, it's been an absolute delight and I've learned a great deal. Thank you so much for joining us this evening and thank you very much to those of you that have that have been listening. I hope you found it interesting. And join us in the forum where we will be carrying on the discussion. Thank you very much everybody. Thanks everyone. Bye.
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