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0:01
a major scientific discovery a new method of producing stem cells it's being hailed as revolutionary and could bring stem cell therapy step closer but if the controversy over using human embryos over and how should ethics determine medical progress this is inside story
0:36
hello there welcome to the program I'm she gauche it's been described as a game-changing scientific breakthrough a new way of creating stem cells this much cheaper and faster than before the technology could repair damaged or diseased organs and help you look your conditions like diabetes in future all without the controversy linked to the use of human embryos in Hayward explains how it's done this research carried out by scientists in Japan
1:05
is being viewed as a breakthrough because it could help a new era personalized medicine offering hope to suffer is a diseases such as Parkinson's diabetes and spinal cord injuries so how did they do it well blood cells were based in a week acidic solution for half an hour the solution may be adult cells shrink and go back to the embryonic stem cell States what makes stem cells unique is that they can become different types of cells in the body
1:33
using this process a patient's own specially created stem cells could potentially then be re injected back into the body to help mend damaged organs one scientist told us this could be a major breakthrough this enables scientists the first time to quickly and she reprogram adult cells backed up early posts them so like site like very potent you mean these cells to make everything was all talk the human body and these are the likely for going to produce therapies in the future the
2:03
scientists in Japan used mice in this experiment but believed the approach may also work on human cells to if it tell us it would potentially make the creation of stem cells faster and eliminate some of the ethical questions often associated with this type of science okay lots to discuss let me introduce today's guess that all in London Dusko image reader in stem cell science that came with the college London School of Medicine we have Julian hedgecock lawyer
2:38
from law for Davis to noon and member of the UK government's emerging science and bioethics Advisory Committee and katherine prescott founding director %uh by electricity limited and former chair the UK national stem cell network good to have you all with us I'm just go let's start with you just to completely make this clear to audience stem cells are important because they are the building blocks that any tissue or organ they have the potential to become sells for different tissues in the body
3:08
that's correct and the the sets them something that is the major advantage at the stem cells you can use them to generate any other tuition organism that can be used for cell therapy or for drug testing and they're all there are embryonic stem cells and adult stem cells but embryonic a far more versatile that's correct so you have different type of the stem cells so they can be and that divided them before to report in C all-important so they can be poor reporting so they can give
3:40
your eyes still almost any tissue organism they can be multiple tint so that this they potentially somewhat limited but via talking today more about pluripotent stem cells and the first to report in stem cells that they're isolated than the talk about I embryonic stem cells so the kinda research with the talking about today where at all cells are based in a week former back said and revert to the embryonic stage that is almost the Holy Grail that we're looking for this kinda research
4:13
that's absolutely correct so this is the Kurt Sutter tray how you can get separate portents themselves our researchers found that I think more by by serendipity it is the right ink ink about the getting close from plan sides because you know if you take a job branch from the tree his stake in the ground sometimes good girl wrote something snot so vote this influence in back up scores from environment they also look to some more from a German scientist many many years ago
4:48
on salamander and they actually said okay what would happen if you'd say Molly and sells in this case mouse cells andy is blocked up and expose the difference in Zazzle's different Hufnagel steal it from environment and among 10 the preferable steam levels acidity change Inc a CD to the media in which cells grow and it is like you're putting a bit to be in a guardian solids to feel better taste so this is what the dates mikhail self sales yet what about half an hour to such compulsion
5:26
and that turned them to pull report that so they become freely they had profound change and they become releasing its embryonic ok as upset as a long-term say which is above our audience went wild understand like Chloe potent but Julian this basically this what's exciting about this research is because it means that we may it not have to create and destroy embryos in order to gather stem cells when a course that a fundamentally is a is a scientific
5:55
question rather than a legal one and it was said when at the time that Shinya Yamanaka announced the Unity doesn't make that he'd achieved the production of these equipments LC's induced pluripotent stem cells he's achieved this with human cells and immediately those who are opposed to the use a fertilized cells excels as as a source if embryonic material material immediately leptin and said he is the ethical alternative but it is a scientific question and in fact
6:27
as a as a disco appeal to to clarify there is actually a qualitative and quantitative difference between the a an embryonic cell and an IPS lol induced person your patent style stem cell that's the lingo IPS I'm so if you decide a a few like a question a principal arises if you were to use if you were to say let's not use the embryos as that term and if you want to use those we'll go ahead we'll use the up Yemen ACA types held at the sort that the to discuss as described or both the the new sort
7:03
that which has just been derived using acid stress am and if you just use as how would you know but it was a privilege you have to have the benchmark at any rate you've got to have to so that yesterday so you can you describe themselves as clearly have to be a minute this is very new research that we have to see if these a induced to stem cells are going to be as useful hours I embryonic stem cells is that what you're saying
7:33
yes i think thats one for disco well let me %uh let me move on to Cafe because I I think it's fair to say that the controversy that has followed stem cell research I has been about this this you serve a embryos a causing arguments about when life begins when an MBA becomes human but just to be clear these are these on embryos which were have been removed from a woman's body these are embryos have been created in a laboratory yes that's that indeed correct Avenue I think be the advantage now
8:07
and excitement that's being really arising from this brand new technique is potentially its its simplicity and therefore the ability for lots of %uh stem cell scientist either existing or new ones you want to get into this area really give them access to to this new type research and that i think is where the excitement is if the rising from its a very different way looking at the signs and thinking about how to take this forward
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indeed well let's just listen to the young Japanese researcher who made the dramatic discovery she says she and her colleagues couldn't quite believe what they saw play Sony talk of the booking or when we first posted our article one of the referees who read the article said we were marking the history of cell biology which has lasted for centuries because technology was a symbolic feel good Kathy she describes this is a simple technology and when you look at what they actually don't
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did it also sounds pretty cheap and pretty easy is that is that good news for a eventually expanding this technique or commercialization of this technique that's going to depend in principle on the surface it could be it sounds like it's a lot more straightforward am ID potentially more efficient then Dec 16 approaches which require the introduction of all foreign for jeans and acting alone is quite complicated however you have to remember that making these
9:36
cells that have the capacity to differentiate into also it's a different cell types of the body that's really the first step in a rather long and complex process and so proportionally speaking how much time and and effort and and money is going to be required to get that first step relative to get relative to going from then the starting point the the cells you've now made through to a design cell type that you want to use for example for therapeutic applications
10:08
or indeed for drug discovery as as tools for for more conventional research so I think the jewelries out right now but it you too exciting particularly from and scientific point of view but I think from the benefits the commercialization I think we need to look at this in a little bit more debt yeah apparatus it is exciting I think it really is exciting disco I mean it it I'm at the moment they've only tested this on mouse cells but if it's shown to work on human cells I mean the
10:39
the possibilities are endless all night total but there is one more thing this whole work was done only young mice when animals that the only one to be called so we still and such animal some more pliable for this you would expect cells from those son was will be more pliable for changes we don't know still whether this can happen with cells from at all times and of course that should this from first before we go to humans
11:06
and I have no doubts that similar may be the same maybe a little bit different stimuli can be applied in human cells it is just a matter of time that's be learned about Carl Julian this is being held as the door Nov personalized medicine I guess when we talk about stem cell therapy what we're looking for I is a point where we can use our own stem cells to you as a starting point to cure conditions or to grow parts of body or tissue the that we need to have
11:40
yes I'm not I have to reiterate the point that this is very early early damn lutely yes I don't know jump ahead and ebony how many are there so many I'm people in this industry are are hailing it as a breakthrough as a revolution it's hard not to get a dick excited eighties but it's also very important experience would with that would tell us not to hype it I'm be would certainly have that in the past we have to be very level-headed about this indeed 88 as as has been described it said fantastic
12:10
invention teaches some obvious things about line science science itself and sometimes going to be the indirect knowledge that we that we get out of this discovery which might be a value like why does this happen the naturally what what systems are in place to stop this happening actually in that might in its own right teachers ways of developing new medicines is the sideways can have a a bigger impact than seems apparent from just a few like a a cell therapy point few but yes you talk about
12:37
personalized medicines and insofar as you could use the patient's own cell well yes it has a lot of relevance than in but where it goes I think I would leave us to discuss I from regulate reporter from regulate 3-pointer view well it would slot into an existing regulatory framework here in the US or ever I'm but tired and I have to say that the the path to market if you were to use such as cell if you were just to squeeze lemon juice on it I'm freighter that was still
13:07
a catcher to a substantial manipulation we have to be which i think is a good so I if he really is and after this week as levin choose I was reading one article that said you know how come it doesn't happen when you recent you spill 11 juice on your own skin well I think that some running think very important question and in fact in her paper are up Carter actually add in her discussion section she refers to this I think and particular example if esophageal are sorry
13:38
s oficio reflux know what's us why I'm the accident might the from impending indigestion all night Sam precisely and the effect and the and it isn't found a so-so it you might expect it to rise naturally in the esophagus and it doesn't so it begs the question it's a technical question about why and so one of the mark has one other week markets like a fingerprint office I'll I could opt for that dad is apparent that something which which we see in
14:09
in embryonic cells and in fact causing the relevant to these ourselves we talked about that that Yamanaka developed but from enough another I'm very important market doesn't typical Nanog um and so it is telling us something about about a written for sharing some new questions as to why doesn't this normally help occur and so it was it suggests an opening a door on discovering a whole new world of control systems but I real you would say from the point of view of
14:40
the law all the the position remains the same from a behind along the way law is driven no doubt its war all miss may help to armed open up discussions about the sort of determining factors that have have tended to to prompt I'm considerations I of potency so for example in the world have have patents I'm in in Europe the position has been reached whereby are currently I'm you can't get an a patent on an invention which is derived from a
15:18
quotes embryo but the but I'd say quotes embryo because embryo is defined as something she's capable love beginning the process of development and so there are issues that okay well let's bring in happy because you're you've got some experience ever patents and how the area industry expands you know is this regenerative medicine it within reach solve a be all patients poor as well as rich %uh me know who foots the bill for that this kind research and how does it become available to us all
15:51
this is an enormously important question and it's one I think we're still trying to that route I'll Panama self say we know who I am if you look at the recent report that was published with and I think the end of last year from out to the US two from the line 3 gent medicine and there they point out that over a billion dollars has been poured into regions medicine research or over a billion dollars in fact and I think something like him a third of that
16:20
has really come from the public sector and then the rest has really come from both and what from investors both surgery trading in the public sector as well as private for the North a lot of money going into this sector which is fantastic I would say that more is going to be required but key to the eighth israeli can regenerate affordable medicines from and from derived from stem cells from from as cellular therapies they're going to be based on our current technologies that we have available
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expensive to manufacture and thats then going to bring about questions about you who's actually going to pay for them within our health care system and if there's going to be a huge demand for them for example if these are really now and the potential solution for treating chronic diseases they should be the huge demand for them because that could potentially sorta bankrupt and health care system so there needs to be and a mechanism to improve the cost to of making the cells
17:24
which right now is expensive and that lot technology that needs to be developed there in back to discover the science in terms of how we're going to add potentially address that that particular question lots of questions around how weekend price these products who's going to be able to afford them and indeed how they came to be valued let some equipment from don't go Americans a you're obviously involved in stem cell science I is is this a stem cell therapy
17:53
a going to be available to everybody or only those who can afford it but the goal is to be the available to everybody holler it's not soul simply it it needs time to talk about to happen so fun it's like I mean you probably know that said there are four blocks the types AB Abyan 0 so practical read this when you can color whole population you talking if you kill a bank of those four different times but when you're talking about cell therapy
18:25
there is so them different I put more like was the Colts a chile title acumen ok with that. antigens in there are many more combination that a hundred subdials in it would be ideally a tree to make a bank that covers a the most population Beach beat the most up common a chilly types in this is like the bay how actually different government starts approach CELTA the in currently in Japan Japanese government puts I'd more than three hundred million dollars
18:56
into I induced pluripotent stem cells and stem cell therapy in 10 the current projects that sheegay maracas workin corn is still built a bank all about hander tsa induced pluripotent stem cells types that have different different a chilly type speeches supposed to cover about seventy to eighty percent the Japanese population so practically if you then meets something sneaky transplant needs muscle bone you can go to the bank get the right cells that makes your body
19:28
and go like that let me talk about personalized it is your sport you that would be too expensive and I don't think that would ever happen okay or II just 12 I have a brief look at how ethics can a died or influence and medical research stem cell research as we've said is controversial because the cells are normally obtained by destroying human embryos but that's not the only research that some find ethically questionable another controversy is cloning think dolly the sheep cloning is the process
19:58
of creating an exact copy %uh van organism that could allow us to one day replace all old faulty organs but some say it is tampering with mother nature genetic engineering is another field which could eradicate birth defects and hereditary conditions but it has led to fears of designer babies and superhumans how about this one human animal hybrid research some US states already banded but that hasn't stopped scientists elsewhere producing pigs with human blood or
20:27
rabbit eggs with human cells and finally several scientists have been experimenting with the bird flu virus creating super strains which are more contagious and deadly than anything in nature and judy n a but some weed research going on is this a problem I i the human research is going to so many new an amazing areas people getting worried about the morals about the ethics and so of King for more regulation more laws I that was a fairly am expansive list i mean and I think the bird flu
21:00
issue perhaps I'd put to one side I think that's a separate in very very important one but referring more to to the other ones in your Skype I would say that as a general matter the the biggest concern the I would have is education is that people the the public is able to understand the issues now if we take that example the particular example of its we will stick with embryos inclines I'm and if you like human-animal hybrids now in the United Kingdom there was a consultation have a very robust
21:28
I'm regulatory system here and in anticipation of some work which was proposed by couple researchers in this country in London in Newcastle there was in fact are to consultations undertaken about this the first to them which was by the from the public health Austin occurred the question do you think that'd be a good idea to have human and animal hybrids wasn't like that on completely unqualified and from enough what people saw another terrible that is desperate there's no I
21:59
yes they said no because it was unqualified now and the papers tended to put put this across as being something that would you know you maybe we'd actually grow some sort of on a Cal personal the truth is so was so far removed from that has to be laughable when people in the second term consultation once people were more aware what it actually involved and realize that the it it wasn't actually going to create man chickens or anything like that and and was actually
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in very modest there's no possibility running developing like that at all then the route the EU we got a more considered right now I think the view I would take personally is that in a democracy people should of course be able to make decisions are the sort such import a require democratic by in essential but underlining that is on understanding at the evidence and there's a danger in I'm many of these areas a E comin more some countries more than others
23:05
where a poor understanding of the science and the issues leads to extremely poor regulation and understanding the United States I have to say is up there with the worst you agree with me i'm happy day the absolutely I think julian has hit the nail on the head and its exactly right education is the way to go forward and its relieve one of the most important issues and it really speaks to that all the stakeholders that are engaged with this whether it's the scientist the clinicians
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whether it indeed to rate the the investors both from the public side of things as well as in private and indeed of course the patient and the general public I didn't the case regulations vary from place to place it in it yes yes and I think that as jane says I think within certainly within the UK I the UK government has been very careful to make sure that you they brought up to speed that they understand what the what the issues are and they take a balanced perspective going forward
24:11
and I think we can only do that if if we take people along with us it has been a fascinating discussion thank you all very much indeed for joining us here on this a episode iv: inside story my guest today Dusko image Julian hitchcock and Kathy Prescott and thank you for joining us on this addition inside story if you want to join the debate went on Twitter send your comments to us at AJ inside story I'm she goes thanks for watching for me and all the team here by
24:40
I'm she goes thanks for watching for me and all the team here by
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