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0:00
What makes us push through when things get tough? And what makes us walk away? So whether it's chasing a dream,
0:07
just getting out of bed some days, motivation and emotion play a powerful role in every choice we make. So in this episode, we're gonna be exploring the psychology behind why we strive, why we stall, and what really fuels our drive to keep going. or can and sometimes does cause us to give up. So buckle in. This is where the heart and mind collide.
0:41
welcome everyone I'm so glad to be with you today my name is craig brewer and I teach in our psychology programs and I have the privilege of talking with you a little bit today about motivation and so I want to share one of my favorite theorists this is hersberg and he did his work in the fifties so frederick hersberg he's got a two-factor theory known as a motivation hygiene theory And again, it was developed in the fifties. And what it really looks at is it looks at job satisfaction.
1:11
And so as a student, I did a doctorate degree in organizational leadership. And at the time we had a lot of downsizing happening in higher education and people were losing their jobs. And so I decided to do my dissertation on factors that influence motivation during organizational downsizing and higher education. And I traveled to all these different Cal State universities, and I met with student affairs professionals to get their story on why they stayed, for those who stayed,
1:40
and for those who left. I had a chance to connect with them, too,
1:44
um how many people were you able to talk to I ended up doing interviews with uh about twelve staff members at four different sites so about thirty six total staff members who had stayed and then I got surveys from folks who had left about forty surveys from those who didn't decide to stay so in in total close to eighty it was all qualitative those were individual interviews
2:11
OK. And then one quick question for you. So when you said the would you call? So Herzberg said the hygiene of motivation.
2:21
For Herzberg, it is a two-factor theory. It's known as the motivation hygiene theory. It's looking at motivation, what's motivating us, and then these hygiene factors. I'm going to break down both of those variables for you. We refer to motivation as the intrinsic variables that lead to motivation. When you think intrinsic, let me give you some examples. One of them is achievement. So if you're able to achieve in your work, oftentimes that leads to intrinsic motivation. Recognition,
2:54
this is if a supervisor recognizes you for your contributions, that increases your intrinsic motivation. The nature of the work itself, At LAPU, I love what we do, George, and so just the nature of the work motivates me. Responsibility is another one. If your supervisors empower you to have responsibility over your department and to make decisions, that's going to increase your intrinsic motivation. Can we stop there for just a second? Because empowerment is,
3:26
that word is overused today and oftentimes used incorrectly or very vaguely. So it sounds like you have a way to really define, you said, responsibility, giving responsibility. So how can we define empowerment so when we, anybody watching this, when they use that, they go for it in a way where it's an intentional use? Absolutely. So When I'm using that term, I'm referring to as a supervisor, giving your direct supervisees responsibility to oversee certain projects and initiatives and giving
3:59
them a certain degree of autonomy, George.
4:02
And how do you do that? It's a fine line. You've got to set some parameters. as a supervisor in terms of what you're looking for. But after you set the parameters, if you put a team together and you give someone the responsibility to run that team and they come back to you with a plan and you say, oh yeah, no, that's not going to work, you've just killed their intrinsic motivation by doing that. They're thinking, OK, you kind of empowered me and gave me the responsibility to do the work.
4:30
I did it. And now you say it's not sufficient. Right. So part of that, if you're going to give folks responsibility, you have to also give up some of your power and decision making. And so there's been cases where I might have delegated a project to a team and they may have come back with something. George, it wasn't exactly what I was thinking. Right. But I didn't just respond and say, oh, yeah, I know that I rather than responding right away, I took a step back and I thought, OK,
4:57
well, I had a thought in my mind. But is my way really better than the team's way? This is seven different people working together. And so I think when I talk about responsibility and empowering, I'm really talking about Giving folks a certain degree of autonomy to do the work and then not judging it just based on my perspective. If they do the work and it comes back to me rather than quickly saying, oh, no, this wasn't what I was thinking. I might take a step back and say,
5:21
I'm not going to respond that way. I'm going to take some time to digest what they've done, get some feedback from others in terms of moving forward.
5:31
Man, such a good definition. Such a good definition, Craig. Thank you for that. Because it's so important that we know that as leaders and future leaders who might be watching this to support decisions. Unless, of course, if there's something obvious that will not work. But yeah, even if it's different than your support, that's such a powerful thing. powerful thing to do and then and then providing the parameters too so if it's an initiative I might say this is the budget this is
5:59
how much we have to work with so when they go into it they know okay this is this is the annual budget for the initiative that way they're going to come back with something within those general uh parameters so um advancements another one if you get promoted in your job george you're going to be more intrinsically motivated thinking okay the company recognizes my achievements and my abilities and then the last one is personal growth when we have the opportunity to grow personally in our work
6:26
it also intrinsically motivates us so all of the things I've talked about have nothing to do with money or office space or any of the extrinsic variables these are all things that we can do as supervisors to
6:40
really increase the intrinsic motivation of our employees. So that's the first part. Now I'm gonna tie it to the second part. So that's motivation and I shared intrinsic. The second part is extrinsic. These are called hygiene factors. That's what Herzberg called them because his thinking was, it's not enough. You could do all those intrinsic things and that would be great, but you have to have a certain level of balance with the extrinsic. So let me share the extrinsic with you.
7:09
The extrinsic get to the, really the company policies, administration, supervision, quality, your salary, how much money you're making, your interpersonal relationships, your working conditions, and your job security. And so these are things that are extrinsic to you personally, but impact you. And one of the key learnings for me early on in my career, George, was oftentimes I've been working in higher education. And so I can meet all these different intrinsic factors with my team.
7:42
But what I found is if I'm not paying them in the mean job range for what their job is, then fortunately they're going to leave. And so I had many experiences like this where I would bring someone on, I would empower them. They love the work. It was meaningful. But then they come to me and they say, hey, Craig, you know, I looked at this other place across the street. They're paying twice as much to do the same job as you're paying me twice as much. So even though I had all the intrinsic,
8:10
I nailed the intrinsic where I'd failed is I needed to look at, OK, what's the what's the range? for the job that they're doing in my local area? What are other people getting paid for that? And if I'm in that mean range, if it had been two or three thousand dollars less than the folks across the street, they would have stayed. But it was a significant difference. And so oftentimes we talk about employees and we think, well, you know, are we having a hard time finding employees? No,
8:43
we can find employees oftentimes with lower salaries. But if we want to retain them, and we want to bring them on board, we need to focus both on the intrinsic and also the extrinsic. We need to continually be looking at, okay, well, what's the job they're doing? And then we can benchmark against the industry standard and say, what's the industry standard? And if we're, I say the mean, if we're like five percent above or five percent below, typically, if the intrinsic variables are met,
9:09
we're going to be able to retain our brightest and best talent. That's
9:14
That's super interesting, Craig, because what you're bringing up really is you can't just look at motivation as one thing. You have to look at it as a whole system. And if one of those gears is frozen, that system is not going to operate. So like you said, for example, pay is not the biggest motivator out there. It has to be good enough to be removed from the table, right? So we have to look at how it all works together and those specific points that can make that gear freeze,
9:45
like cross-street paying double, that would make the gear freeze pretty good. Yes.
9:51
And working in higher education, George, that was one of my limitations was I was working for a small private school. And so oftentimes we weren't able to pay very well. And so I said, OK, I may not be able to pay them well, but I can really nail these other intrinsic variables. And it worked for a season. But I realized over time I needed to work on both. The other fascinating thing is oftentimes we think people think if I get a raise, I'll be more motivated. Well,
10:15
the research does not say that raises increases in pay do not motivate employees. Once you're at that main range and you feel like I'm getting paid in the right range for what I'm doing, giving people more money doesn't motivate them to achieve, which is kind of interesting.
10:32
Yeah, that's something. And pay factors in until it doesn't. And those other those intrinsic motivators. So let's say I went across the street because I got a lot more pay, but it was just a horrible place to work. There was there was no autonomy. There was micromanagement. instead of a certain level of autonomy,
10:54
that breaks down that system really quickly as well, would you say? Absolutely. And a lot of the folks that left, that had worked for me and left, many of them came back, George. Oh wow. Okay. So they, you know, because again, the grass always looks greener on the other side and they were thinking, you know, there's more money there, but they didn't have the intrinsic variables. It wasn't meaningful work for them. And so for some of them, they came back and they just said, hey, it's not,
11:20
I thought the money would make a difference, but at the end of the day, it wasn't enough to matter and they felt really passionate about what they were doing when they were working with me on the team and just the impact we were having on lives because we're working in higher education. We're changing lives, we're watching students achieve and graduate and accomplish goals and there's so much intrinsic motivation tied into working in higher ed. That's one of the things I enjoy most about the
11:46
industry and higher education is we've got so much of that. And then for us at LAPU, I want to tie it up even more. We're not just doing higher education, but we're doing Christian higher education. So for believers, for believers, Christians that come on board with us, the intrinsic motivation is is really there because they're able to share their faith.
12:06
They're able to personally grow in their faith. We have prayer meetings. And so for us as an institution, we've got all these intrinsic factors. I think we do really a good job with meeting those. But the more difficult piece oftentimes is those extrinsic in terms of of the pay. Another thing that we struggle with is because we're a small organization, people don't always have the opportunity to move up and get promoted.
12:31
Right right right. And so that's also a challenge where folks are like, hey, I'm looking for an opportunity to get promoted. But one of the things that LAPU has done is they've been intentional about working to promote people with from within when opportunities become available. And by doing that, if I've been here for five years and I'm in the same job, but I see that someone who was here before me who's been here for ten years gets promoted, it gives me some hope that, OK,
12:57
There might be promotion opportunities for me in the future versus if they hire an external candidate, then it's like, well, you know, I could serve here for ten or fifteen years and there's no guarantee that that's going to lead to any potential promotion. So that's another variable to look at.
13:21
you can find ways to meet those intrinsic needs or those extrinsic needs, I should say,
13:30
regardless of circumstance. So no matter where, if anybody's watching this and they own a business or anything, don't let that circumstance dictate the extrinsic motivation piece that happens. If you're creative, you can figure out a way. Absolutely George.
13:47
If you're creative, if you focus on the intrinsic variables, you've got that going, then like you said, it just takes creativity to look at the external ones and say,
13:56
why are we losing people? We do exit surveys. Exit surveys is a great way to get at that as people leave the organization and say, what was it? Then we can document those variables and look and say, okay, what was it that led to them leaving? Going back to my earlier example, when I went to the Cal State universities and I did all these interviews and I talked one-on-one with these folks, I asked them, what kept you here? And for the folks that stayed, it was interesting.
14:27
It's both intrinsic and extrinsic. Part of it was recognition from their supervisor.
14:34
So that's the intrinsic piece that they had been recognized by their supervisor. They had a supervisor who demonstrated to them that they were achieving and doing well. But the second piece is supervision quality. That's an extrinsic factor. Now, the folks that stayed oftentimes said the reason I stayed was because my supervisor came and spoke with me and they told me, yes, we're going through downsizing and we're going through layoffs, but you're going to be secure in this role.
15:04
And I desperately want to keep you on the team. And you are doing an amazing job at meeting the mission and the goals of the organization. That ended up being the primary goal. theme throughout the interviews was their direct supervisor and both the intrinsic piece of it, of them giving them encouragement about their work, and then also the extrinsic, their supervision quality. And so for the folks that left when I did mostly surveys, the feedback was they didn't have that same
15:35
relationship with their supervisor, George. No one came and spoke with them. They saw downsizing happening. They saw their employees packing their bags. And their supervisor didn't come and say, Hey, George, let me sit down with you. Let me tell you how valuable you are to the organization. Let me assure you that you're not going to be in the next round of layoffs. You know, leadership sure does matter. And that points it out so well, because if we don't have those conversations,
16:05
people are going to fill that void of unknown generally with something that's not good, especially if it's layoffs that are happening. That's not a happy moment in life. So we're going to fill it up with probably some pretty bad thoughts, some pretty, oh, my goodness, you know, and just make us overall uncomfortable. That's so interesting how what you did clearly points out that leadership matters and how leaders communicate leadership. matter and how they're there when things are hard yes
16:37
and so for some of the leaders george that were more conflict avoidant they were worried about reassuring their employees because they weren't sure if the downsizing if they would be able to keep them on board so some of them just avoided the conversation right they just thought I'm just going to avoid it Now, the problem with that is once they avoid it, the employee thinks, okay, my supervisor knows I might, we might have downsizing happening and they're not making any attempt to meet
17:04
with me or talk with me. That means I'm probably on the list. And so they filled their mind with the negative. I'm probably on the list. They're probably going to cut me. I need to find another job. Fill that in really quick. Yeah.
17:19
And, you know, I've been on that end where we were going through layoffs. Nobody was talking to anybody. And it was very stressful. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I concur with everything you learned from your study. So now that kind of that brings up a great point of there's this concept called grit or stick-to-itiveness, whatever you want to say. And Angela Duckworth did a lot of research.
17:47
She did a lot of work in this area. And one of the things that I really want everybody to understand is no matter what circumstance you're under, she had a fantastic formula for being successful. And her fantastic formula for being successful was effort matters twice as much as anything else. So talent times effort equals skill. Skill times effort equals achievement. So that skill or I'm sorry. So that effort, that is what really matters. Your effort into it. Of course, we need some talent.
18:23
And when we put effort towards talent, that creates skill. That's what it does. So when we up our skill and we continue to put that effort into the skill now.
18:35
we begin to be able to achieve and that is what kind of helps people stick stick to things doing something difficult and overcoming um have do you have any insight on that craig absolutely and I think oftentimes there's a theme george you've probably heard it says we hire people based on their attitude not on their skill set well attitude could also be seen as grit right Because you can always train for skills, George. We can train people how to do the skills, but we can't change their
19:07
attitude or their grit. And when I think grit, I oftentimes think resilience. Oh resilience yes. And that passion about... you know just uh providing effort there's some folks out there that um that just have this internal drive that they want to do their best and they're going to put every effort in to doing their best and getting it right and for those folks that is more important and more powerful like you said um so the major insight is that grit matters more than talent in
19:40
predicting long-term success so if I hire someone that has a passion for getting it right and they want to do the right thing. And that person is more likely going to be more successful. And if I hire someone that's been doing has the skills, they've been doing it for twenty years, but they're not passionate about the job. Maybe they're just thinking, yeah, it's another job. The difference there is I'm going to see more long term success, interestingly enough, with the person that
20:06
doesn't have the experience and doesn't have the skills because they've got the attitude and the heart and the grit. And that is the key. Again, we can always train people for skills. So that's been another learning in my career, George, not to just mark someone off the list because they don't necessarily have the skill set for a specific job, but to look deeper. What's their internal motivation? What is their career? What is their resilience? What have their experiences been?
20:33
And those people that have overcome challenges and have that inspiration to achieve are the people that I want on my team.
20:43
Craig, you brought up a fascinating point for those who overcome challenges. And really, I love that point because if you want to build resilience, if you want to build grit, you have to do something that's hard. Do something that's hard. And when we look at people who've overcome, they didn't. overcome because they're just amazing. Well, they probably are an amazing human being and have a lot of these skills, but they got those by being uncertain at that time of whatever they were overcoming,
21:13
going through whatever that hard was, right? There's that one saying, you know, choose your heart. Do you want to save money now or be broke in the future? What do you want to, you know, choose your, choose your heart, right? So folks who are able to go through something hard and transform themselves simply by, you continuing to go through the process. Those are the ones we see, oh, you have grit. That grit was earned. And you know, the thing I see, George, one of the themes in this
21:40
Intro to Psych course I teach with students is a lot of times when they've been through these really difficult and challenging experience, they internalize that and think, I am less than this other person who hasn't been through those struggles. And I try to tell that student, no, you are more than because you have got grit now. You have been through the trial. So a lot of it's reframing our negative thinking and our thoughts about, I'm damaged or I'm broken or I'm less than because I
22:08
went through this trial or difficulty. The truth is, if you've been through trials and difficulties, that gives you this grit and you are more than and you can use that experience to build on and accomplish great things.
22:20
That is so cool. So I think that's the perfect spot to stop right there.
22:26
You have what it takes. If you've gone through something hard, something that required you to build your grit, you're more than. I love that. Always remember you are more than. I love that. Thank you so much, Craig. And this is what learning feels like.
22:50
Thank you.
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